LamboClone - The Premier Site for Lamborghini Replica Builders
How To - Tips => Heating and Cooling => Topic started by: usmc_butler on April 02, 2012, 10:33:26 AM
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Radiators and fans
Just for reference and maybe everyone already knows this but; example a Autozone belt number 610K6 is a 61 inch 6 rib belt (Supercharger on my car) and a 815K6 is a 81.5 inch belt with 6 ribs (all other accessories). So if you know your inches of the belt, it is easy to convert to a part number..
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/dustin_butler/IMG_7678.jpg)
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/dustin_butler/IMG_7679.jpg)
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Just importing some useful info from Chris for reference!
If you want to mount your radiators in the rear, it's best to remove the stock corners of the Fiero (if this is what you are using for a donor). I'm attaching a picture of the area I removed and boxed in on mine. I used some angle iron and made some frames to hold the Civic radiators that would attach to the insides of the boxed in sections. I ended up going back in and removing more metal which is shown by the lines drawn into the pictures.
The kicker is that all this work was in vain on my car since I'm going with a custom rear frame now and I'll build new radiator mounting areas on the new frame. My advice is that if you are looking at an engine swap, relocating the radiators, frame stretch (if not already done) and axle lengthen, you might want to consider going with a custom rear frame attached to the Fiero tub.
I found that I've wasted a lot of time and money trying to modify a 30 year old Fiero to do things it was never intended to do versus just investing up front in the custom rear frame which would've been the more logical and cost effective way of doing this.
Just some friendly advice from someone who has been there and doing that... :)
Chris
([url]http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/dustin_butler/FieroFrame-Cutawayjpg_thumb.png[/url])
([url]http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/dustin_butler/IMG00073-20110403-2118afterjpg_thumb.png[/url])
([url]http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/dustin_butler/radIMG00058-20110403-2115jpg_thumb.png[/url])
([url]http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/dustin_butler/DSC_1169JPG_thumb.png[/url])
Thanks again "No Bull" for the good info hope you don't mind that I am sharing this.
Thank you for sharing... this is good stuff and you are doing exactly what I expected the members to do and share information.
Thanks for posting and please keep it coming!
Chris
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Hi Guys,
I hope that my picture helps all who are using twin rear mounted radiators. Air will get trapped in the upper part of the radiators whether used as cross-flow or vertical flow design. A fitting has to be welded/added (threaded fitting to accept a brass elbow) to the top of each radiator and hoses routed to the expansion tank to bleed off the air. These lines are pressurized to system psi so clamps are needed (3/8" reinforced hose). A higher pressure cap is installed on each radiator so that no fluid will leave the system. The 15# cap will vent excessive pressure fluid to the overflow can. Special thanks to Jim Dinner for his input. (I hope that I got this straight and makes sense);-)
Jim
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Cooling System 101:
1. Your hand is a 140º thermometer. If you can hold on to a hose, it is 140º or cooler.
2. The temperature at which coolant will boil will increase 3º for each # of release pressure on the radiator cap. For example: A 15# radiator cap will increase the boiling temperature of the coolant 45º. Thus the coolant will boil at 257º (212 + 45).
Warning: Both items #1 & #2 can cause serious burns. (duh)
You are not paranoid if everyone is out to get you!
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Silly question.. what if I mount my radiators right side up vs. sideways, how does this affect your diagram? Will the air bleed fittings need to be mounted somewhere else? Suggestions for helper water pumps and if so where would you put them in this design? I have a sensor and relay for my fans and I think I bought the 140 degree version.
Great information and thank you for sharing.
Chris
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There are NO silly or dumb questions when building a replica car.
Radiators that are mounted vertically would need the vent fitting on the top of the radiator tank. If vents are not installed the air bubbles in the system will accumulate in the radiator and cause overheating. An accessory water pump (Don't buy a cheap one if needed. CSR makes a good one) could be mounted in the "hot" supply line to the radiator if needed. I would think that it would be operated along with the radiator fans. Today's cars run a 180-195º thermostat. Radiator fans turn on at approx. 235º. Fuel efficiency and epa requires these temps. So normally, while on the road, the fan/fans will not even come on as temps hover around the 210º range but may come on with A/C operation. I like a 180º stat and a 200º fan switch.
01Lambiero
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on mine build the rads are mounted vertical and bleeders are plugged. pressured expension tank that goes into water pump tube. heater hose coming out of termostat housing. no termostat installed. but I changed my Japs mini rad fans for Spal 1630cfm/ 20A. it has a 190F sensor to activate fans. I had it run and so far it kicks in 180* and in 2 minutes fans off . tested with laser termo gauge and hoses are 150*. and that is on 3800 S/C gen ll. with the fans that come with the rads it was hotter and kept on running.
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has anyone thought of using a corvette self burping system ? The air pockets are issues with the stock fiero , there was a guy a while back that used a " self burping " as he called it I believe , from a newer corvette on his fiero. I will see if I can try and find a link on fiero.nl Not sure if it would be much help but sure would be worth a try..
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If you can pull a vacume on the system, it will draw out the air pockets!
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jb1: It should work fine. I'm going to install one off of a Buick Century on mine. (it has a 3/4" hose fitting and a 5/16" fitting on it) Make sure that it is mounted higher that any other coolant hoses.
Robert: If you fill an innertube 90% with water and 10% air and hang it on a nail with the valve stem at the bottom, you can apply 15 inches of vacuum on it and the air bubble will remain. Could you explain your theory of how vacuum will pull out any air pockets? I may be missing something there. Jim
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I know I read it on here before. You should run the radiators in parallel . Porsche also runs it that way. As far as the" burping" most newer cars have pressurized overflow containers. That means the radiator cap is on the overflow tank. Just find one that mounts to your chassis with out to much modification.
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something like this
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2000-2001-2002-2003-04-New-GM-C5-Corvette-Radiator-Surge-Overflow-Tank-10430189-/320968838087?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4abb3bcbc7&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2000-2001-2002-2003-04-New-GM-C5-Corvette-Radiator-Surge-Overflow-Tank-10430189-/320968838087?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4abb3bcbc7&vxp=mtr)
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jrule78: You can run your radiators in series or in parallel. However, if there should be any restriction in one of the radiators, the flow will take the easier route with less cooling. Be safe and check each radiator with a laser temp gun with a warm engine. The late model tank is a air-bleed chamber and is connected to the overflow tank. (subject to change due to variance in manufacturing systems)
Eddie: Your engine is running too cool. 180-195 is a norm for thermostats. I would suggest a 10-15 degree increase over the engine stat for a fan switch. Jim
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Thanks Lambiero. I have to say I plagiarized your name for my build. I was just posting what I read on here previously about the rads. Who's to know which way will be better until a couple of builds are done.
As far as the pressurized coolant tanks. I've been turning wrenches for a few years professionally. Most newer cars I've worked on only have the one tank. Just suggesting what I think would be a good idea and what Ill be using on my build.
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WHAT PART NUMBER OR WHAT RADIATORS ARE YOU GUYS USING, I NEED TO GET TWO ASAP. tIME TO RUN THIS CAR. LOL
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WHAT PART NUMBER OR WHAT RADIATORS ARE YOU GUYS USING, I NEED TO GET TWO ASAP. tIME TO RUN THIS CAR. LOL
I think these are it, at least they are the ones I am going to buy and install: http://www.ebay.com/itm/181153605728?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/181153605728?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)
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cool thanks
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I can find the Honda radiators size 18"x13"x1.5"
is this the correct size to fit murcy?
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what size radiators are in the murcy? Anyone please. ::rocker
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Do you really need the OEM size of the Murcie radiators? Are you going to use an OEM Murcie engine? The Honda Civic racing radiator is one choice for dual radiator replicas and will handle most power plants. They have an aluminum core which is excellent in cooling systems. Custom radiators will cost you extra $ and will work also. Jim
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::bounce I was looking for the size of the civic radiators. I think it is 14"x7"x1.5" and cost $50 to $100 each. Correct? ::LAMBO
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You are looking at the wrong civic radiators. Check the link out below. 14.5 x 16.5 x 2 It has a double row of tubes and I think that the tubes are either 3/4" or 7/8" long for excellent cooling. They are not a large area radiator and fit my Diablo nicely. They have a 1.25" diameter inlet and outlet so you may have to plan out your cooling system for downsizing. I made two fittings for the air bleeds on the top tank of both of the radiators. Jim
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ALUMINUM-DUAL-CORE-2-ROW-RACING-RADIATOR-92-00-CIVIC-DEL-SOL-INTEGRA-EG9-EK9-EM1-/360574476043?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item53f3e9df0b&vxp=mtr#ht_4328wt_1399 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/ALUMINUM-DUAL-CORE-2-ROW-RACING-RADIATOR-92-00-CIVIC-DEL-SOL-INTEGRA-EG9-EK9-EM1-/360574476043?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item53f3e9df0b&vxp=mtr#ht_4328wt_1399)
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The fans that come with the one autopro posted, would they be good enough for a 300hp alum. v8? I know everyone says to use spal fans but would like not to if I don't need to
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The fans that come with the one autopro posted, would they be good enough for a 300hp alum. v8? I know everyone says to use spal fans but would like not to if I don't need to
I would run the cheap ones that come with the radiator and see how they cool then upgrade if needed.
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I don't know if the SPAL fans come with the attachment kit or not but even with the "cheap" fans you will need a NYLON installation kit. The cheap plastic kits break. Jim
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The cheaper fans have only 11 hundred cfm.
Spal that size is 1700cfm. When you put the body on it has bad air flow. To my experience ( I had two 25th reps on Fiero base with Lt1. )
It run 240f (that is why I changed now in my Diablo build to higher Cfm pulling ) not only that since it was a kitcar all the heat was going or creeping into a cab. Now
I also installed a Oem Murcie muffler that is good 70lbs heavy it is insulated and even after 1/2 running you can put your hand on.
But that is my opinion easy to fix now then later when the body is on mounted
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Will the radiators come with fans?
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You will have to check. Some do, some don't. Usually not. Jim
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Make it an option for you later. Perhaps you can put pushers on the front of the rads later.
The fans that come with the one autopro posted, would they be good enough for a 300hp alum. v8? I know everyone says to use spal fans but would like not to if I don't need to
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::LAMBO Any photos and info on how to run the hose from the engine to radiators, and did you use the pipes from the fiero motor? I am installing my dual radiators and removing the front oem fiero.
1, will I have to remove the rear bumper? In my case it will need to be cut off it I have to remove it.
2, will I have to make a cage to hold the two radiators in place or can it be made out of fiberglass.
::beers ::beersThank you all and help will help.
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People show how they did it in their build diaries, check 'em out
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Can you please point me to a build diary or two that show this info - e.g. the details on plumbing and additionally mounting the radiators (especially for a Murcie)
Thanks!
Peter
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Use spal fans
You will overheat with the cheap china fans and its 100x easier to do it right now vs fixing it later
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Use dual fans on each radiator also, 1 in the push and 1 in the pull positions on each radiator. It makes a WORLD of difference!
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pkovgolf / Peter: I don't think that there is a cut & dried blueprint for installing rear radiators. When I got to mounting my rear radiators, I made a frame for each radiator with mounting tabs for holding the radiators. You have to allow clearance for the rear mounted fan on each radiator which will be covered with metal mesh/screen. With your body positioned on your chassis, slide the radiator up inside to the correct position that you want in front of the rear opening. You may have to trim the metal on your chassis for clearance for each radiator. Once it looks good, weld brackets from your radiator frame to your chassis and strengthen as necessary. Hose routing is also a builder's choice. You can choose in series or parallel flow. Jim
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Thank you again Jim!
Sure looks like a tight fit :)
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My suggestion, connect the rads in series not parallel (unless the tubing is equal lengths from the Y's on the supply AND return).
Use Spal fans that run at around 20 amps each. (Measure fans by amps not CFM - some manufacturers have strange criteria)
I ran 2 fans per rad like Mike suggested. It does make a big difference and works but the Spal fans actually pushed more air.
My yellow 6.0 is now running cool at an outside temp of 105* in traffic. Engine stays at 200*(fan off) to 205*(fan on).
My experience...
http://www.kitcentral.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=4055&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=120&sid=b5dc3597ec7074f1cd9347b9bf0ff1ad (http://www.kitcentral.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=4055&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=120&sid=b5dc3597ec7074f1cd9347b9bf0ff1ad)
Dale VanBlokland's experience...
http://kitcentral.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=3444 (http://kitcentral.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=3444)
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I like series flow myself too because you will have equal flow through each radiator. We covered this in the "Heating Cooling" Topic post. Your "best friend" should be a laser temp gun. It will nail down how warm things are getting. Jim
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If you do not have your radiators yet consider dual pass radiators. You can find them at www.summitracing.com (http://www.summitracing.com). Just do a search.
Dual pass means the water goes through the radiator twice by-way-of both inlet and outlet being on the same end of the radiator. The water goes in the inlet and has to pass through once to get to the other end tank and then back through once more to get to the outlet. They claim to offer better cooling per radiator size. I am using dual pass and find them effective.
I just can't wait to see how wrong I am about this. Murci-me, are you there? Maybe we need another Rube Goldberg solution.
RT
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Dual pass radiators only cool slightly better (less than 5%) than single pass radiators. Don't believe the sales pitches and big claims, its just a way to sell more expensive radiators. More efficient cooling is achieved by slowing the flow of the water through the radiators, not by sending the water twice through the same radiator. Some heat expelled through the first pass is absorbed in the second pass, and the warm air flowing through the vanes reduces the cooling of both passes, lowering the efficiency of the radiator and making it not much better than a single pass radiator . Dual fans on a single pass radiator will cool better than a dual pass radiator with a single fan. Its not an opinion, it just science. If you want to cool better, slow the flow through the radiator by increasing the size of the core, and guarantee smooth airflow by adding dual fans. That's how Rube Goldberg would do it.
I think if you really want to help increase cooling, use aluminum tubing as the plumbing. Aluminum disapates heat very quickly, and acts as a heatsink before and after the radiators. Just in the tubing alone you can expect about a 10 to 15 degree temperature drop overall. Rubber hose is an insulator, use as little as possible.
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Dual pass radiators only cool slightly better (less than 5%) than single pass radiators. Don't believe the sales pitches and big claims, its just a way to sell more expensive radiators. More efficient cooling is achieved by slowing the flow of the water through the radiators, not by sending the water twice through the same radiator. Some heat expelled through the first pass is absorbed in the second pass, and the warm air flowing through the vanes reduces the cooling of both passes, lowering the efficiency of the radiator and making it not much better than a single pass radiator . Dual fans on a single pass radiator will cool better than a dual pass radiator with dual fans. Its not an opinion, it just science. If you want to cool better, slow the flow through the radiator by increasing the size of the core, and guarantee smooth airflow by adding dual fans. That's how Rube Goldberg would do it.
I think if you really want to help increase cooling, use aluminum tubing as the plumbing. Aluminum disapates heat very quickly, and acts as a heatsink before and after the radiators. Just in the tubing alone you can expect about a 10 to 15 degree temperature drop overall. Rubber hose is an insulator, use as little as possible.
Ahhh, Murci-me you didn't disappoint!
It is so nice to have an expert on EVERYTHING right here at Lamboclone. What would we do without you?
You admit they give you additional cooling but go on to explain how heat from the first pass somehow heats the second pass. (?) The two sections of the radiator are not one in front of the other.
You want to slow the water through the radiators to increase cooling. That is what thermostats do BUT if you slow the water too much the engine will overheat. That is why there are thermostats. They control the amount of water based on temperature. It is still up to the radiator to cool the water. Larger radiator cores will help BUT, as every builder here knows, we are limited in the space available for our radiators and so must made the best of what space we have. THAT is why we are discussing this!
As for dual fans, some have installed them and it has helped BUT it shouldn't be needed. The two fans could end up fighting each other if they have different capacity. If you install one EFFECTIVE fan, you will do well. Besides, THAT it too complex and I am surprised you would suggest it. You like to keep things simple. Remember KISS? Keep It Simple STUPID. Calling your opinion science does not make it so.
If you use aluminum tubing for your water piping with the expectation it will help your cooling, it will dissipate the heat right back into your engine compartment where you will have to find a way to remove it. (Maybe more fans? That would be simple, stupid. [KISS]) Is that 10 to 15 degree temperature drop proven scientifically? If so, it MIGHT register on the water temperature gauge BUT it ends up back in the engine compartment! You rely on Rube Goldberg too much.
Maybe the entire answer is back in your super-simple batwings.
RT
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Ahhh, Murci-me you didn't disappoint!
It is so nice to have an expert on EVERYTHING right here at Lamboclone. What would we do without you?
You admit they give you additional cooling but go on to explain how heat from the first pass somehow heats the second pass. (?) The two sections of the radiator are not one in front of the other.
You want to slow the water through the radiators to increase cooling. That is what thermostats do BUT if you slow the water too much the engine will overheat. That is why there are thermostats. They control the amount of water based on temperature. It is still up to the radiator to cool the water. Larger radiator cores will help BUT, as every builder here knows, we are limited in the space available for our radiators and so must made the best of what space we have. THAT is why we are discussing this!
As for dual fans, some have installed them and it has helped BUT it shouldn't be needed. The two fans could end up fighting each other if they have different capacity. If you install one EFFECTIVE fan, you will do well. Besides, THAT it too complex and I am surprised you would suggest it. You like to keep things simple. Remember KISS? Keep It Simple STUPID. Calling your opinion science does not make it so.
If you use aluminum tubing for your water piping with the expectation it will help your cooling, it will dissipate the heat right back into your engine compartment where you will have to find a way to remove it. (Maybe more fans? That would be simple, stupid. [KISS]) Is that 10 to 15 degree temperature drop proven scientifically? If so, it MIGHT register on the water temperature gauge BUT it ends up back in the engine compartment! You rely on Rube Goldberg too much.
Maybe the entire answer is back in your super-simple batwings.
RT
YES! The answer is in the batwings whenever you're putting radiators in the rear. The Diablo has vents that duct air at all times to the rads. On a Murcielago, you MUST have functioning batwings or the batwings must be affixed in the up position at all times to avoid overheating.
One can wire their batwings to open & close to the changing temperatures. I used 2 honda civic radiators in the rear with 10" fans on both on my first build. I never had any overheating problems except for when the batwings were closed. But, once they raised, the temp gauge never exceeded the 1/4 mark.
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AH, YES,YORICK, HOW TO COOL OUR ENGINES. We have incorporated so many variables into our builds that it is almost possible for most everyone's advice to be correct. Last time I checked: the thermostat opens and closes to keep the temperature of the coolant in the engine block at a set temperature. When all of the coolant has achieved the temp of the thermostat, the regulation of controlled temp moves to the efficiency of the radiators. The efficiency of the radiators is regulated by numerous things such as: Surface area/size of the cooling tubes, capacity, construction material, and AIR FLOW. Fans and ducting are next and hopefully the final addition. One other overlooked culprit is the maker of all of this heat: OUR ENGINES. More HP requires more cooling. What works for one would not be sufficient for another. I wish that I could have purchased a temp laser 30 years ago. Jim
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If you can engineer in an oil cooler that should help too. You can get them either with fans or without. We run deep sump oil pans with oil coolers on some nasty big blocks and they help a lot.
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Good point gtxdon.
Any method used to remove heat from the engine will help.
I also have a deep sump pan and an oil cooler with two 6" fans that will remove heat.
My engine is 383 cu in putting out approximately 650 HP and requires sizable cooling. During testing I found no cooling problems. I used dual-pass radiators connected in parallel with equal piping, single electric fans, stainless steel water piping, the above mentioned pan and oil cooler, ceramic coated headers, fan cooled exhaust, and have the double-scoop deck lid over the engine.
Everything you can do to remove heat is worth doing.
RT
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"opinion" is not science. Science is based on fact, not trial and error.
Lambojayso is right, you must have functioning batwings, and I don't mean just capable of raising and lowering. They must be fully ducted to channel the air through the radiators unobstructed.
I realize there are alot of self made engineers on this forum, thinking that trial and error is a valid substitution for education+experience.
Science is the PROVEN statistics of a given problem, and the proven outcome of the solutions. Yes, the dual pass radiators do cool better than the single pass, but its LESS THAN 5%. Is that what you guys are looking for, 5% better cooling?
Push/pull fans will only fight each other when they are of different CFM's. It wouldn't surprise me that you (RT) would "try" 2 different fans and then in your moment of brilliantcy determine its inefficient.
The facts are that dual pass rads only cool at best 5% better than single pass. The fact is that given the problems with rear mounted radiators on these builds (limited space, poor airflow), the answer is to use the largest possible SINGLE PASS radiators that will fit, slow the water flow to insure better cooling, and use dual fans OF THE SAME CFM on each radiator.
Go back and try it RT, you'll see I'm right.
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It wouldn't surprise me that you (RT) would "try" 2 different fans and then in your moment of brilliantcy determine its inefficient.
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Go back and try it RT, you'll see I'm right.
This is uncalled for Mike. RT is a well respected retired engineer and has many years of experience in this field.
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"opinion" is not science. Science is based on fact, not trial and error.
Lambojayso is right, you must have functioning batwings, and I don't mean just capable of raising and lowering. They must be fully ducted to channel the air through the radiators unobstructed.
I realize there are alot of self made engineers on this forum, thinking that trial and error is a valid substitution for education+experience.
Science is the PROVEN statistics of a given problem, and the proven outcome of the solutions. Yes, the dual pass radiators do cool better than the single pass, but its LESS THAN 5%. Is that what you guys are looking for, 5% better cooling?
Push/pull fans will only fight each other when they are of different CFM's. It wouldn't surprise me that you (RT) would "try" 2 different fans and then in your moment of brilliantcy determine its inefficient.
The facts are that dual pass rads only cool at best 5% better than single pass. The fact is that given the problems with rear mounted radiators on these builds (limited space, poor airflow), the answer is to use the largest possible SINGLE PASS radiators that will fit, slow the water flow to insure better cooling, and use dual fans OF THE SAME CFM on each radiator.
Go back and try it RT, you'll see I'm right.
Mercy, mercy, Murci-me...
You seem to be upset at me. All I did was inform builders that dual pass radiators were a viable option for them. You even agree they will give a 5% better cooling. I don't know where you got that statistic but let's say it is correct. With all the problems we have cooling these builds wouldn't we want to get the best we can. After all you suggested aluminum tubing with a guess that would supply an advantage. An advantage I disagree with, but that is my right to disagree and I stated why. Let the readers decide who is correct.
You also seem to assume/suggest that I am a self-made engineer with no education/experience in the field. Designing machinery was not only my profession, I was recognized as a leader in my field and headed departments for internationally sold machines. My products are in use around the world yet you think I would "play around" with dual fans on one radiator and try to make them work on a trial and error basis. LOL
As for the batwings, OF COURSE THEY MUST DUCT AIR TO THE RADIATORS! Just how stupid do you think everyone is?
Please, stop.
RT
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It wouldn't surprise me that you (RT) would "try" 2 different fans and then in your moment of brilliantcy determine its inefficient.
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Go back and try it RT, you'll see I'm right.
This is uncalled for Mike. RT is a well respected retired engineer and has many years of experience in this field.
I to am an Engineer, or did you forget that? Look back at his posts, he is constantly calling me out with his jabs and sarcasm. I only respond to his comments, such as in this case.
I don't care who he is or what he's done, wrong is wrong. I don't state my opinions just the proven facts, and the FACT is dual pass radiators only cool (less than) 5% better than single pass radiators. I have nothing against anybody on here, but when people come on to attack me with their comments, references and opinions I will defend myself.
I'm sorry his feelings got hurt with my "Rube Goldberg" reference about his batwing mechanics, but I stand by what I said about it and the Lamborghini engineers obviously agree with me.
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"opinion" is not science. Science is based on fact, not trial and error.
Lambojayso is right, you must have functioning batwings, and I don't mean just capable of raising and lowering. They must be fully ducted to channel the air through the radiators unobstructed.
I realize there are alot of self made engineers on this forum, thinking that trial and error is a valid substitution for education+experience.
Science is the PROVEN statistics of a given problem, and the proven outcome of the solutions. Yes, the dual pass radiators do cool better than the single pass, but its LESS THAN 5%. Is that what you guys are looking for, 5% better cooling?
Push/pull fans will only fight each other when they are of different CFM's. It wouldn't surprise me that you (RT) would "try" 2 different fans and then in your moment of brilliantcy determine its inefficient.
The facts are that dual pass rads only cool at best 5% better than single pass. The fact is that given the problems with rear mounted radiators on these builds (limited space, poor airflow), the answer is to use the largest possible SINGLE PASS radiators that will fit, slow the water flow to insure better cooling, and use dual fans OF THE SAME CFM on each radiator.
Go back and try it RT, you'll see I'm right.
Mercy, mercy, Murci-me...
You seem to be upset at me. All I did was inform builders that dual pass radiators were a viable option for them. You even agree they will give a 5% better cooling. I don't know where you got that statistic but let's say it is correct. With all the problems we have cooling these builds wouldn't we want to get the best we can. After all you suggested aluminum tubing with a guess that would supply an advantage. An advantage I disagree with, but that is my right to disagree and I stated why. Let the readers decide who is correct.
You also seem to assume/suggest that I am a self-made engineer with no education/experience in the field. Designing machinery was not only my profession, I was recognized as a leader in my field and headed departments for internationally sold machines. My products are in use around the world yet you think I would "play around" with dual fans on one radiator and try to make them work on a trial and error basis. LOL
As for the batwings, OF COURSE THEY MUST DUCT AIR TO THE RADIATORS! Just how stupid do you think everyone is?
Please, stop.
RT
Well I'm glad to hear you are NOT one of these people on the forum that think just because they changed their own brakes that they are suddenly a brake expert.
I too have several accomplishments, and hold 4 current patents for machinery I've designed that are licensed to companies and in use.
I have a masters degree in Electrical Engineering, and a Bachelors in Mechanical Engineering. I worked 2 years on the Los Angeles Metro Rail project as a traction power engineer, designing power substations for the Metro rail. I've also worked for Hughes Aircraft Radar Systems Group, Rocketdyne, and worked as lead engineer (@25 years old) for ground support engine on the space shuttle program at NASA/JPL in Pasadena CA. I developed an attachment that saved Rocketdyne over $8 million yearly to test flow valves while still attached to the engines, negating the need to tear down the engine to test them. The stuff we do on here is not rocket science, nor does it need a university degree to figure out. None the less though, what i've learned in my past jobs has given me the knowledge to eliminate what wont work from what will.
Everybody is entitled to their opinions, but i'd rather rely on experience and knowledge.
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as far as a few ideas, i have to agree with running them in series it is a lot easier to do. this is what i did on the last set up i did. i took and added a fill neck between the rads (higher but between them) i also went with alum. tubing as much as i could for the durability, which in turn i was able to keep the soft hoses short. the fill neck between the rads is mainly for filling the system. and i put i stronger cap on it. the expansion tank has a cap also which is accessible easily in the compartment. which is where you can maintain the system. the rads i used are more oe sized and configured like the oe ones. which made it much easier to plumb. they are triple core 1.5 thick with 1 1/4 outlet 1 1/2 inlet. i think one way to slow the flow down is with a bigger lines. in regards to what your pump pushes if you have smaller lines then the flow will move faster the bigger the line the the slower and you can hold and move more volume. trick is to much volume and your pressure can almost become stagnant. which would not be good either. thats just pumping 101 i learned as a fire fighter many many years ago. now with racing all my other years i learned that the overall volume is key to your system how fast you move that volume is key to the efficiency of it. now im no engineer how ever i can the distance difference to a normal front engine design over a mid engine design with the rads in the rear . thier is considerable difference is the distance that water travels and how it is plumbed in our app. oe lambo design is more efficient in parallel for the distance of plumbing and rad placement. we on the other hand are using a motor set up (in most cases) that was meant for a front engine front rad set up, moving the rad far away from the pump changes a lot of things plumbing it makes sense to do a series set up. also if your running a low horse power low rpm motor you might even want to change the size of the lines to be a bit smaller to help keep good flow. not to much as you dont want the water traveling to fast or it wont cool enough. say maybe if the normal was plumbed with 1 1/4 lines and now that you just added 6 ft or more line to the system. the pump is working over time to push all that extra volume. well maybe an 1 1/8 line would help restore the flow that you pump likes. alright alright ill shut up now. just a thought i really cant see why four fans instead of two. and it might be possible that some of you guys might be running more of a stagnate problem rather than an air flow problem. if air was that much of a problem why is their not 4 fans on the oe application. dont take me wrong guys im not trying to be ignorant to anyone. just had to figure these kind of issues out before in my day. different kind of cars but same issues. so its just a thought.
anyone wants info on these rads i use just email me
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Nice work Cliff! I agree with you on your flow suggestions, faster vs. slower.
The reason for 2 fans is because of the space in front of the radiator, or lack thereof. Theres usually no more tan just a couple inches between the face of the rads and the wheelwell liner, causing a very poor and turbulent airflow as the air tries to make a 90 degree immediate turn to go thru the radiator. Also it guarantees that any air in front of the radiator is forced to pass through it instead of around it. A single fan on the rear of the radiator (in the "pull" position) looses power trying to pull air through the radiator, which is very restrictive through the vanes. A 1000cfm fan looses about 40% of its airflow because of this, and much is lost around the sides of the radiator as well. Having an additional and equal fan in the "push" position assures full flow through the radiator, and minimizes airflow around the sides which does nothing to assist cooling.
My friend has a G24 with a front mounted stock Fiero radiator, but has a 3800SC in back. The angle at which the radiator is mounted in front greatly reduces its flow, especially since when the air comes through, it has to make a sharp turn to go down to exit. His car was constantly overheating, even with a huge pulling fan. We mounted an equal pushing fan in front of the radiator, and the car has never overheated since.
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Most "heatsinks" on electrical components are constructed of Aluminum, due to its remarkably fast heat transfer and dissipation properties. Second is copper, steel is last.
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If you are running more than one radiator cap, make sure to plug the vent port on the cap neck on all except the one you use to fill.
You will want a ‘VENTED’ or ‘CLOSED’ radiator cap if you have a ZERO PRESSURE reservoir tank.
You will want a ‘NON-VENTED’ or ‘OPEN’ radiator cap if you install it on a PRESSURE reservoir tank.
Any cap, no matter the pressure, will draw air back into the system as the liquid cools down. If you have the Honda rads with the caps on them you now have two places for air to collect during cool down. Plug those ports.
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Thank you, Jim for that pointer of the "caps". I completely forgot about the check-valve in the caps. I thought that I had it covered by installing higher pressure caps. Live and learn.
Jim
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Yup, great point!
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If you do not have your radiators yet consider dual pass radiators. You can find them at [url=http://www.summitracing.com]www.summitracing.com[/url] ([url]http://www.summitracing.com[/url]). Just do a search.
Dual pass means the water goes through the radiator twice by-way-of both inlet and outlet being on the same end of the radiator. The water goes in the inlet and has to pass through once to get to the other end tank and then back through once more to get to the outlet. They claim to offer better cooling per radiator size. I am using dual pass and find them effective.
I just can't wait to see how wrong I am about this. Murci-me, are you there? Maybe we need another Rube Goldberg solution.
RT
Copied to preserve.
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Dual fans on a single pass radiator will cool better than a dual pass radiator with dual fans.
Wrong.
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Dual fans on a single pass radiator will cool better than a dual pass radiator with dual fans.
Wrong.
The way that was supposed to read was "dual fans on a single pass radiator will cool better than a single fan on a dual pass radiator" (I edited that posting to reflect this). I already posted that a dual pass is only (at best) 5% better in cooling than a single pass.
Do you have some proof to the contrary, or is this just an opinion?
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How about 5% better. I'll take 5% better than 5% worse any day of the week. If your car is running a stock 2.8 you may never see the importance of a properly functioning cooling system. I battled with running hot issues for over a year on my V12. Now it is solved and I documented the entire process.
Our cars can not be textbook due to the way air can flow. The lower rocker scoops can redirect or cause turbulence to radiator air intake prior to hitting the rad, huge vacuum is created behind our cars when they are at speed and the engine bay has virtually no air movement.
Dual Pass = Lamborghini
(http://www.usedlamborghiniparts.com/Upload/494_777_U1X001731654.jpg)
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5% better only amounts to 1 or 2 degrees.
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5% better only amounts to 1 or 2 degrees.
You claim that the radiator's working temperature is just about 20-40 degrees? What are those degrees? F or C?
I'm asking, because last time I serviced a radiator the temperature was nearly 100 degrees C (212 degrees F) because the water inside was just starting to vapour. 5% improvement in cooling means 5 degrees C (10.6 degrees F) lower temperature, which is a lot.
By the way, best cooling is made with front mounted radiators and metal tubes, because (1) taking air stream directly from the front air intakes will provide the most cool air possible, and (2) the water will go through longer distance where the metal tubes will release a few more degrees in both directions.
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The working temperature of the radiator is anywhere between freezing and 260 degrees. Lets say the engine is running at about 200 degrees F. as the coolant runs through the single pass radiator, it cools to 180 degrees F and returns to the engine (this is just a hypothetical example, temperatures vary). That is a 10% drop in temperature, which is about normal.
Now, as stated, "dual pass radiators cool about 5% better than single pass radiators". So, if a single pass cools 20 degrees a dual pass will cool an additional 5% (of that 20 degrees), so 5% of 20 = 1 degree. So the single pass cools 20 degrees, and the dual pass cools 21 degrees. As stated, dual pass radiators do cool better than single pass, but only 5% better than the amount of cooling expected from a single pass. It's not opinion, its fact.
As also stated before, Aluminum tubing (metal) also accounts for much heat dissipation in the total system, and the more tubing the better. Aluminum sheds heat much quicker than steel or copper, that's why heat sinks made from Aluminum are used on electrical components.
Location of the radiators has nothing to do with cooling if the radiators receive the same amount of airflow regardless of their position. The Radiators in the back of my build receive far more airflow than the front single radiator ever did, due to the design of the front of the car and the ride height.
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The working temperature of the radiator is anywhere between freezing and 260 degrees. Lets say the engine is running at about 200 degrees F. as the coolant runs through the single pass radiator, it cools to 180 degrees F and returns to the engine (this is just a hypothetical example, temperatures vary). That is a 10% drop in temperature, which is about normal.
Now, as stated, "dual pass radiators cool about 5% better than single pass radiators". So, if a single pass cools 20 degrees a dual pass will cool an additional 5% (of that 20 degrees), so 5% of 20 = 1 degree. So the single pass cools 20 degrees, and the dual pass cools 21 degrees. As stated, dual pass radiators do cool better than single pass, but only 5% better than the amount of cooling expected from a single pass. It's not opinion, its fact.
As also stated before, Aluminum tubing (metal) also accounts for much heat dissipation in the total system, and the more tubing the better. Aluminum sheds heat much quicker than steel or copper, that's why heat sinks made from Aluminum are used on electrical components.
Location of the radiators has nothing to do with cooling if the radiators receive the same amount of airflow regardless of their position. The Radiators in the back of my build receive far more airflow than the front single radiator ever did, due to the design of the front of the car and the ride height.
Have you ever checked the tests of companies making dual-pass radiators? I checked these yesterday. Aside from the usual fake numbers most of them use for advertising purposes, there are thermal tests showing at least 5-10 degrees F drop of the temperature compared to normal single-pass radiator.
Also, the example you gave may not work on your car if you didn't provided proper air flow in the front end to extract the hot air behind the radiator (and this must be at least the same size as the air intake, plus proper way to redirect it to outside). Blocking the hot air behind the radiator is the easiest way to make the latter ineffective, thus overheat the engine. Also, a radiator inside the engine compartment (like some builders install the radiator in front of the rear air ducts below the tail lights) and taking air from inside is all wrong, because that means the radiator is receiving already 50-80 degrees C hot air before the fan which is not as effective like the cold air coming in a front air intake radiator configuration.
As for the tubing used to additionally cool the hot water, with 2 radiators at the front you have at least 3 meters (118") length for each of the two tubes of each radiator that are making the circuit between the endine and the radiator. Depending of whether you connect both radiators to use the same circuit in (1) a engine>radiator>radiator arrangement, or (2) engine>both radiators arrangement, you get either 6 (236") or 12 (472") meters long tubing respectively. I have never heard about anyone who is installing his/her radiators at the back with that much length of tubing. And, again, even if somehow you manage to put 12 meters of tubing inside the engine compartment, you can not expect to have the same positive effect of losing heat from the tubes, because the heat inside the engine compartment will act against the hot water in the tubes. This is double negative effect where each of these hot things will impede the cooling of the other one.
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Look, I don't pretend to be an expert on this particular discussion. However, it makes sense that two radiators are better than one. How much better? We can debate that forever. The only way to tell for sure is do some scientific tests and post the results. I doubt anyone will take the time to do that but I personally would find it very interesting. It also makes sense that two fans in a push-pull configuration will do a better job than one. It is a simple concept - two fans simply move more air. I have been doing the same thing on my custom built (water cooled) PC for years. I can tell you two fans make a difference. How much? Again, if we really want to know, we will need to take the time to do the experiment and analyze the results. I'd love to see this done.
Mike
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The working temperature of the radiator is anywhere between freezing and 260 degrees. Lets say the engine is running at about 200 degrees F. as the coolant runs through the single pass radiator, it cools to 180 degrees F and returns to the engine (this is just a hypothetical example, temperatures vary). That is a 10% drop in temperature, which is about normal.
Now, as stated, "dual pass radiators cool about 5% better than single pass radiators". So, if a single pass cools 20 degrees a dual pass will cool an additional 5% (of that 20 degrees), so 5% of 20 = 1 degree. So the single pass cools 20 degrees, and the dual pass cools 21 degrees. As stated, dual pass radiators do cool better than single pass, but only 5% better than the amount of cooling expected from a single pass. It's not opinion, its fact.
As also stated before, Aluminum tubing (metal) also accounts for much heat dissipation in the total system, and the more tubing the better. Aluminum sheds heat much quicker than steel or copper, that's why heat sinks made from Aluminum are used on electrical components.
Location of the radiators has nothing to do with cooling if the radiators receive the same amount of airflow regardless of their position. The Radiators in the back of my build receive far more airflow than the front single radiator ever did, due to the design of the front of the car and the ride height.
First off, welcome to the forum 670SV!
Not to beat a dead horse here but....
I was just wondering why you would choose the radiator temperature numbers of 180*F to 200*F to base your 'fact' on? Can you provide data for this?
I was just curious why the 5% fact would be based on such a weird number combination when a lot of LS engines run at about 212*F and some euro engines run at a 230*F.
http://www.flyinmiata.com/tech/rads.php (http://www.flyinmiata.com/tech/rads.php)
Is it possible that the people that put this study together fudged the numbers to show that the dual pass radiator had a better cooling difference of 12*C (21.6*F)?
Do they not know the facts? This is not supposed to happen, it should only be 1.0*F, right?
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Now that's what I am talking about jdinner! Nice to have some science in this argument. This was a very interesting experiment. I wonder if anyone has done any experiments on push-pull fan configurations?
I did a quick Google search and didn't turn up anything really useful.
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The working temperature of the radiator is anywhere between freezing and 260 degrees. Lets say the engine is running at about 200 degrees F. as the coolant runs through the single pass radiator, it cools to 180 degrees F and returns to the engine (this is just a hypothetical example, temperatures vary). That is a 10% drop in temperature, which is about normal.
Now, as stated, "dual pass radiators cool about 5% better than single pass radiators". So, if a single pass cools 20 degrees a dual pass will cool an additional 5% (of that 20 degrees), so 5% of 20 = 1 degree. So the single pass cools 20 degrees, and the dual pass cools 21 degrees. As stated, dual pass radiators do cool better than single pass, but only 5% better than the amount of cooling expected from a single pass. It's not opinion, its fact.
As also stated before, Aluminum tubing (metal) also accounts for much heat dissipation in the total system, and the more tubing the better. Aluminum sheds heat much quicker than steel or copper, that's why heat sinks made from Aluminum are used on electrical components.
Location of the radiators has nothing to do with cooling if the radiators receive the same amount of airflow regardless of their position. The Radiators in the back of my build receive far more airflow than the front single radiator ever did, due to the design of the front of the car and the ride height.
The numbers and temperatures are just an example, not chosen for any reason other than for sake of example.
I think every manufacturer fudges the numbers somewhat, and there are other factors that play into the total cooling effect as well.
I went on Nutrisystem 3 years ago and GAINED 6 pounds dammit! They lied to lol!
I think the whole point being made was to not buy into all the hoopla and claims. The price of a dual pass radiator compared to a single pass is not justified (in my opinion) for the amount of cooling achieved (dollar vs. degree).
I bought a time machine off ebay that doesn't work either, maybe I just have it hooked up wrong ::tongue I did enjoy your sarcasm about the subject though, very refreshing!
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Not sure if this is revelant or not but- Last October one of my dual Griffen radiators got a small pin hole leak. I took it out and dropped it off to get it fixed. Wanting to drive the car I just looped the coolant lines together and only used the one radiator. My engine temps went from 160-170 degrees (160 thermostat) to 200 to 210 degrees on my LS4 using only 1 of the spal fans. This was in cool fall air temps of 60-65 degrees, I bet had I tried it in the 100+ degree summer months it would have over heated...
But these are pretty small radiators on a v8 so it makes sense that the temps went up. Got the other radaitor fixed and put back in 3 days later and the engine temps went back down to normal levels. Recently the summer temps reached 95-100+ degrees and my car temps started to go up around 200-210 degrees in heavy traffic.
After scratching my head for awhile trying to figure out way my engine was running hotter than normal I found out that the factory LS4 aluminum heater core lines that ran along the exhaust manifold and exhaust cross over was getting to hot. Fixed that issue and now the engine temps are back down again....
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So, from what I read, you had dual radiators but one got a leak so you took it out and ran the car with just one radiator instead? You wonder why the car ran hotter running on just one radiator instead of 2?
I think this discussion is about Dual pass radiators versus single pass radiators, not dual radiators versus single radiators lol.
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I may have muddied the water with my post including comments on single vs. dual radiators. However, I think everyone knows what the discussion is about by now. ;)
For what it is worth, I thought tonypaul's comments were very interesting. Kinda nice to know you could limp along with one radiator in an emergency. Nice side-effect of a dual radiator set-up. You automatically get a hot spare (pardon the pun).
As I mentioned before, the testing posted in the link above is very helpful. I would be interested to see additional testing of series vs. parallel as well as push/pull fan configurations. Has anyone done this or is anyone interested in doing it? I may have to do my own testing someday. Honestly, why not do everything possible to lower the temps?
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When I took my Griffin radiator in to the shop to get it fixed the guy commented on how small of radiator it was. I told him I was running dual radiators, he immediately ask me if I had them in a series or parallel setup. I told him I had them in a series and asked if that was best way to run them. He said most manufacturers that uses 2 or more radiators that he has seen runs them in parallel but he said he has seen problems with them run that way.
His explaination was that one of the radiators could get a air bubble/pocket or debris one and not let coolant run thru both at the same rate of flow as the other and cause the circulation not to be evenly distributed. He also said he had seen them in a dual setup where one radiator cools each side of the engine in some industrial machines. So in theory if one radiator was blocked the head on that side would be running hotter than the other and cause all kinds of problems.
But thats all in theory and would depend on the setup. He suggested that I keep them in a series if its working for me. I would think that what ever setup someone wants to use and it works- more power to them.....
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So, from what I read, you had dual radiators but one got a leak so you took it out and ran the car with just one radiator instead? You wonder why the car ran hotter running on just one radiator instead of 2?
I think this discussion is about Dual pass radiators versus single pass radiators, not dual radiators versus single radiators lol.
You gotta read the entire post- especially the part where I said "it makes sense" why it was running hotter....
Im sorry I should have only posted something only if it was pertaining exactly to the subject... my bad~
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Could someone please post pictures and details on plumbing the dual radiators on a fiero?
You can see details at my build diary - I have the original rear on the car so there is not a ton of room for the 1.5" or bigger tubing
Thank you!!
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Thanks Lambiero and others
Can you please look at my build diary and see how mine are mounted?
Since I have the original fiero body in the rear, there isn't much room to connect these and I would like suggestions on the right/best way to do it
Thank you!!
Peter
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LEON what kind of rad and fans are you guys using that is some HD engine there.
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Make my own alloy 450mmx450mm 3 core tanks top and bottom out let's on one side& Fiber glass fan shround
Leon.
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And the Fans ? how many CFM
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1500 cfm
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Thank you
If you look at my build diary, you can see that I have the brackets done and the radiators attached to them
What I was asking about was how to run the piping and where to connect the intake and outlet lines from the radiators - and I have my trunk in place also
Thanks again!
Peter
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Hot side of engine ( top pipe usually) split to top of both radiators. Bottom pipe from radiators ( cold side) split, join together back to bottom pipe on motor ( usually thermostat inlet)
Tried passing through one radiator then onto second one in the past and with the heat here in Australia does not work too well if the engine is of a decent size.
Leon
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That is interesting Leon. Thanks for sharing.
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Forgot to also mention what I found if you go through one radiator then the second instead of splitting them. Obviously the first radiator runs hotter so fans tend to stay on, unless you ran independent triggers for each rad, but u would find the first one would stay on alot more... Either way parallel the radiators like they do oem I feel works the best ;)
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This is how Lamborghini did it on the Murci.
Chris
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Does anyone know the OEM size of Murci rads? Thanks!
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would it be same as Diablos???
here's a picture of cooling on Murs
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No one ever mentioned the make/model of rear rads that fit the diablo
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And the Fans ? how many CFM
Eddie these are what I have been recommended for my Countach build they run 2800cfm, needed for a Bmw v12
https://www.a1electric.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AEOS&Product_Code=30102800HO (https://www.a1electric.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AEOS&Product_Code=30102800HO)
and in here Jim dinner mentions the size a 16 x 16 and I think he connects them in serial
http://www.kitcentral.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=printview&t=3543&start=0 (http://www.kitcentral.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=printview&t=3543&start=0)
http://kitcentral.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=printview&t=3444&start=0 (http://kitcentral.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=printview&t=3444&start=0)
Eddie the best thing you can do is buy jims cd, I did and it has saved me days of work it covers pretty much everything for a Diablo build, im doing a Countach but a lot of the info still applies best $50 I ever spent.
https://jimdinner.wordpress.com/ (https://jimdinner.wordpress.com/)
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HEy Bro thanks for thinking of me, how ever my rolling chassis is complete and driveable. got the Spalfans. BTW JIM Dinner is my neighbor, so all good and lot of help from him ;)
post some of your build