LamboClone - The Premier Site for Lamborghini Replica Builders
The Forum => Lessons Learned - Advice to Newbies => Topic started by: autopro on April 29, 2012, 12:59:20 PM
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Hello all :). I am starting this thread in order to get advice on a future build of a Murcielago LP640. I will be purchasing my kit from John Watson within the next week, sadly I had to sell my motorcycle to partly fund the LP640.
I do not want to use a Fiero as a donor, I would much rather use a Porsche Boxster. There was a lot of talk on USMC's build thread (sorry for the highjack) whether I should us the Boxster or to build a custom frame.
Hopefully this thread will help decide on the pros and cons of building the Watson kit onto the Porsche Boxster. I also want to use this thread to get a lot of questions that I still have... thanks in advance
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Welcome to the site.
Building with a Fiero "tub" is another option. This involves using the drivers compartment of a Fiero and the front portion of the frame and build a custom tube frame off of the back of the tub. This allows for you to build the rear frame around what ever engine you want to use and you still retain the tub that Pontiac spent millions in development costs to design years ago. The tub is also what holds the VIN number which can help you title and register the car (a major problem is some states). The Fiero has a lot of suspension modifications that are basically bolt on so unless you want to pay someone to figure all of that out later on, you might want to consider this. If you go the Fiero route, make sure you buy a really solid Southern or West coast car that has no accident damage or rust. I can tell you first hand that after I add up the hours and dollars associated with stretching a frame and then modifying everything to accommodate rear mounted radiators, engine and transmission swaps etc, going the route of using a custom rear is the way to go and in my personal opinion will give you a better car at a lower price.
As for the body.. make sure you do your homework on all the OEM vs. donor parts that you'll need to finish it. The G28 bodies may not be 100% accurate, but this is mainly due to the number of lower cost donor parts that they use. Yes there are more accurate bodies out there but you'll be forced to buy stuff like OEM glass etc and this can be very expensive. If you can afford it... then go for it, OEM is the way to go for overall fit and finish. Keep your build diary updated and we'll all cheer you on and help along the way.
Best of luck on your build journey and again... welcome aboard.
Chris
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Thanks Chris for the tips, yes one of my main concerns about using the Fiero is the engine and suspensions that they originally come with. Using only the tub and building a rear frame sound like a good alternative. Would you happen to have any good build threads that use this concept? Maybe some links also for the suspension components and engines that I can use? I will be registering the car in California, do you know of any problems with using the Fiero VIN since it will have an entirely different engine. California smog laws are a beach....
I did check out the G28 bodies, but I would rather spend a bit more to get that fit and finish that you talk about.
Thanks for the welcome Chris
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VF1Skullangel do you know if I can use the third generation MR2 from 1999 to 2007 W30? I did look into this but could not find out if those years could be used. I would totally go this way if I could, thanks for the info...
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I like no bulls idea with the fiero tub and build a custom tube frame off of the back of the tub. So then you have a title for tag purposes. I really like the way my body fits the fireo tub. If you use a MR2 that would work as well. I will do some research and find a few builds using the mr2 and post them up
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Here is a MR2 build that I found ( http://www.madmechanics.com/forum/build-diaries/14552-mitchmurcy2s-build-murcielago-lp640.html (http://www.madmechanics.com/forum/build-diaries/14552-mitchmurcy2s-build-murcielago-lp640.html) ). I know that there is a company that sells a complete bolt on frame for a Fiero tub but I cant seem to locate the thread..
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I agree with you USMC and No Bull on using the Fiero tub and I have been thinking about it all weekend, but I do not think my abilities and or budget can handle trying to put a whole car together. One of the main reasons I would like to go with a donor car such as the MR2 or Boxster is that all the systems are there already. I can handle the stretching of the car fairly easy since I own a body shop and have been doing collision work for many years.
Thanks for the links you sent me they will help our a lot.
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autopro I am going down a similar road. I purchased a clean Boxster S for my build with the same reasoning that you have. I hope that I made a good choice. :-\
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I have nothing against a boxer donor don't get me wrong, if more people were using them more information would be out there ??? Not to mention its a "Porsche!" and they are much newer then a old Fiero's 8)
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From what I’ve read it’s just a little bit more difficult to install the body onto the Boxster which I think I can handle, I’m pretty good at cutting cars apart ;D! Trying to figure engine swaps, computers and wiring harnesses is more difficult for me. On the Boxster I wouldn’t have to worry about swapping out the engine, at the most I would upgrade to some coilovers, the exhaust and maybe brakes.
Texas; I guess you and I would be the guinea pigs here, do you have any pictures of your build I would love to see what you are doing and how you are planning on doing it.
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Maybe I look at this a little differently but if you are going to extend the frame on a car (Boxster, Fiero or MR2) and move everything around to accommodate the body, engine and transmission swap and things like rear mounted radiators, then you might want to consider spending this time and money with a custom rear frame. We've not started mine yet (sorry no pictures yet) but we are planning on using a front clip from a Pontiac G6 that was set up for the F40 transmission. Everything will be cut away except for the frame and this will be flipped around and used as the base for the custom frame that will be built around it and tied back to the tub. My buddy did this on his G24 project and it turned out really nice. You end up utilizing the majority of transmission and engine mounts and can retain the most of the suspension. My 3800 SC will be fitted up to the F40 and the "shift by wire" cables extended to the tunnel. I'm going to try and figure out the linkage myself but my backup plan is to use the Archie kit for the F40 swap. If you found a decent front wheel drive car with a undamaged front clip, you could in theory use everything as I just described.
Just some things to ponder.. :)
Chris
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I am still collecting parts at this moment. Trying to buy a house with a shop, my wife would kill me if I purchased a body before we get a house however I have managed to buy a few OEM parts so far. I haven't decided on who's kit I will buy yet either, I talked with a couple of Kit makers and still not sold on the one that would be ideal for me. So at this point I have a all untouched Boxster S new exhaust headers to tip, all OEM grille's and lights except headlights and emblems and a few odds n ends. I am still learning from the forms and getting a sense of direction from everyones helpful comments. Oh if a Boxster is still something your thinking about Mike Vetter's has a video that shows a by step on stretching this car and there is a short clip of this on youtube. Good luck with your build
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If you are going to use the boxster the vetter body is made for it. That would be the way to go if you can get one. The boxster has a lot of issues when using the g28 body. I tried it and it seemed to me it was more trouble than it was worth. So much of the car has to be cut away to get the body to sit low enough. The front shock towers are actually too high. Then when the body is at the right height the steering wheel to too far back into the cabin and too high. There were a lot of other issues. That being said it has been done and I'm sure you could do it. Hopefully you will be happy with the end result.
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If I could do it all over again I would def just use the Fiero tub for registration and title purposes and build around that. This is what I did, not much of the fiero left but more than I would like considering the cars 20+ years old.
Ive since cut off the upper "death cage" off and replaced it with some 1.5'' DOM.
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd416/Jets303/IMG_0156.jpg)
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No Bull:
That is a lot to think about. I am still about a month or two before I decide on what I will get as the donor, that is why I wanted to get this conversation started early. I would love to see pictures of when you start doing your work, maybe I can just do like you are doing.
Texas:
Just don’t tell her!!! Is there a particular builder that you are leaning towards right now? Let me know where you are getting your OEM stuff from. Since I am using a John Watson body I pretty much have to get original Lamborghini parts. It would be nice to start shopping around for my taillights, grilles, emblems and glass.
Cementhead:
This is great info. I think my main concern is the position of the steering wheel; do you feel that it can be shortened and maybe dropped a little? Please do tell me about the other issues that you had.
Jets303
That looks awesome; please let me know where I can find more information on how to do that. Are there plans available for the fabrication of the frame to use on the Fiero tub? Is it possible to buy a donor car like a corvette and use suspension, motor, transmission and other components from it? It would be so much easier for me to just buy one donor car and not try and piece components from many donors together.
Guys thanks for all the information that you are giving me, this is really helping out tremendously! :) :) :)
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If I could do it all over again I would def just use the Fiero tub for registration and title purposes and build around that. This is what I did, not much of the fiero left but more than I would like considering the cars 20+ years old.
Ive since cut off the upper "death cage" off and replaced it with some 1.5'' DOM.
([url]http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd416/Jets303/IMG_0156.jpg[/url])
Jetts Looks fantastic! How much of the upper dash did you have to cut down and did you have to trim the back firewall down any?
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Yea that would be a tuff one to hide. My office is already cluttered with parts. I got most of my parts off eBay and everything else from Lambostuff.com. I found a guy parting out a wrecked LP640 on eBay and just called him told him what parts I wanted and asked for a deal so he shot me a price that was lower than everything separate . Dint be afraid to haggle a bit with guys like that on eBay, it will save you both time,money and the hassle of listing/buying. As for the Kit supplier even if I got OK to buy today I honestly couldn't pick one without feeling more comfortable about the purchase. I am still weighing out the pros and cons of each kit. I am a paint n body guy myself and with that said I am having a hard time deciding on what kit will make more sense for me to build.
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Well I placed my deposit today for the John Watson kit 8); he said it would be ready in 4 to 6 weeks. I’ll post photos of it when it arrives.
Texas: I based my decision on the quality of the kit, John’s reputation and his responsiveness. I contacted several kit builders either by e-mail or phone and all of them except for John where short with me and didn’t answer all of the questions that I had asked. John was the only one that would take his time by calling me, answering e-mails and providing me with photos as I requested them.
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Nice! I belaive you made a great choice. I did the same thing you did on checking out these kits and I would agree John was the one that I felt most comfortable talking with. Can't wait to see those pics.
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I hear the Watson body is the best out there although I've not see one up close. You will need to start a build diary and show us what the differences are and we can help you work through some of the engineering. Your approach is right on and asking questions only costs a little time vs. all the money and time you can waste trying to figure it out the hard way.
We are looking forward to some pictures and videos.
Chris
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"quality of the kit, John’s reputation and his responsiveness."
So true. He's the best. and doesn't charge $50 for a lame guide with nothing in it like rob does.
I can't wait to see the kit you're getting.
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Guys believe me I will post detailed pictures and start a build thread once I decide on the donor car. John W. Did throw me for a bit of a loop today by suggesting that I use a Chrysler Sebring convertible as the donor car. He said to install a Chrysler300 3.5 HO engine and transmission in the rear. He said the Sebring was a very good donor since it has almost the same wheelbase and it's a cab forward design.
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Guys believe me I will post detailed pictures and start a build thread once I decide on the donor car. John W. Did throw me for a bit of a loop today by suggesting that I use a Chrysler Sebring convertible as the donor car. He said to install a Chrysler300 3.5 HO engine and transmission in the rear. He said the Sebring was a very good donor since it has almost the same wheelbase and it's a cab forward design.
Please do not base your project on a front engine base.. please! :) With all of the money you are going to spend, this is not one area that I'd suggest taking any shortcuts. This is the foundation of your build and a poor base will make ruin even the best paint jobs and rims. CarKit attempted to do this with their "Murcy 4" and use an F body (Camaro / Firebird) which I think looks completely out of proportion.. One of the reasons a Lamborghini looks so good is the lowered hoodline and front firewall that you can only achieve with a rear engined chassis. Rather than totally engineer a front engined car to accept the body, it's much easier and ultimately less expensive to use a mid or rear engined donor. If he's suggesting using a Chrysler 3.5 in a rear mounted configuration, then I can partially understand this and you could use the engine, frame, transmission, suspension and ECU from a car hit in the rear as the base and build your custom frame from / around that (just turn everything around to push vs. pull). I had an LHS that had this engine and it ran very strong. The transmission and electrical components were the weak links and the car started falling apart (transmission failure and gadgets stopped working) at around the 70,000 mile mark.
Just my personal opinion and I'm just trying to help. At the end of the build you only need to make you and the next owner happy and of course we want everyone to be safe. 8)
Chris
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I would still do mostly custom chassis, it's not like our g28 body where the donor car rear firewall is in the same spot as where it's supposed to be on the kit, oem body is different. The only build diary I can see following is Watson's and you can build that same chassis easily. I don't mind sharing the naerc plans if you want, the only differences are some rear and front sections and side rails are bent for diablo door sills.
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He's the best. and doesn't charge $50 for a lame guide with nothing in it like rob does.
Ya i fell for that.... ::) the disk is nothing but pictures of other peoples build threads and all of his youtube videos... The only thing I found useful is how far I needed to cut the Fiero dash down. Oh well only money. ;)
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I would still do mostly custom chassis, it's not like our g28 body where the donor car rear firewall is in the same spot as where it's supposed to be on the kit, oem body is different. The only build diary I can see following is Watson's and you can build that same chassis easily. I don't mind sharing the naerc plans if you want, the only differences are some rear and front sections and side rails are bent for diablo door sills.
I’m going to have to take you up on that offer my friend for the chassis plans. I would like to see more of your build when you started it and how you got the chassis built and put the suspension on it. It’s good to know that you will be able to point me in the right direction on what changes to make to the chassis so it fits the Murcielago body. Thanks a million!
He's the best. and doesn't charge $50 for a lame guide with nothing in it like rob does.
Ya i fell for that.... ::) the disk is nothing but pictures of other peoples build threads and all of his youtube videos... The only thing I found useful is how far I needed to cut the Fiero dash down. Oh well only money. ;)
I almost bought it off e-bay, I even had it in my watchlist until I saw a couple of people complain about it only being pictures. Now I’ve heard that the Extreme DVD is actually pretty good but they only sell it to people who buy one of their kits.
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If he's suggesting using a Chrysler 3.5 in a rear mounted configuration, then I can partially understand this and you could use the engine, frame, transmission, suspension and ECU from a car hit in the rear as the base and build your custom frame from / around that (just turn everything around to push vs. pull). I had an LHS that had this engine and it ran very strong. The transmission and electrical components were the weak links and the car started falling apart (transmission failure and gadgets stopped working) at around the 70,000 mile mark.
Just my personal opinion and I'm just trying to help. At the end of the build you only need to make you and the next owner happy and of course we want everyone to be safe. 8)
Chris
Yes, this is exactly what he was saying. I talked to him about it some more this morning and he gave me a few more pointers. I asked him to come join the site and give us his input here.
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Well I used chassisworks plans to build mine then I used naerc to make it closer to oem, if I was going to build another I would have used naerc plans from the beginning but I didn't have them at the time.
Basically with the chassisworks frame the body just fits over it loosely but there's nothing in the plans to mount the body to there's not even side rails in it, all that framing you have to figure out. Then I had to figure out the differences of the two chassis' in the front to add the naerc front bumper section in the correct location. The rear firewall is different. Also in the rear of cw chassis you can't fit the one fuel tank you have to use two smaller ones. Kinda hard to modify that part.
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VF1Skullangel
I actually am going to build this on a NAERC chassis. Thanks to this thread and everyone’s help it has made my decision easier. I already have a quote on the metal and have started to buy parts for my suspension. Once I start with the actual building of the chassis I will post some pictures. I will have many questions regarding the build but I know you guys will be able to help me out.
One of them right now is which coil overs to use for the front and rear suspension. The chassis plans call for a 10†adjustable coil over, the fronts with 10†250lb springs and the rears with 8†400lb springs. Now my question is what coil over shock to buy, it would help a lot if you guys could give me a model number. It is very confusing for me because they all talk about the compressed height and the extended height and there seem to be all kinds of ranges.
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on mine chassis I bought a rear TCI coil over 250 lbs each
http://www.ebay.com/itm/TCI-ALL-AMERICAN-250-LB-COIL-OVER-SHOCKS-INSTALL-KIT-/300570727653?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item45fb6954e5&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/TCI-ALL-AMERICAN-250-LB-COIL-OVER-SHOCKS-INSTALL-KIT-/300570727653?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item45fb6954e5&vxp=mtr)
front 450 lbs
http://www.ebay.com/itm/TCI-ALL-AMERICAN-250-LB-COIL-OVER-SHOCKS-INSTALL-KIT-/300570727653?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item45fb6954e5&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/TCI-ALL-AMERICAN-250-LB-COIL-OVER-SHOCKS-INSTALL-KIT-/300570727653?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item45fb6954e5&vxp=mtr)
verify if need 8"
front use each wheel 450 lbs ( one wheel)
rear 2 X 250 lbs per wheel ( total 4 shocks) are you sure you have a NAERC plans or someone else?
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naerc had two different chassis I never compared the two but they look similar :S
The normal tube chassis is different though, it doesn't look complete and the firewall doesn't allow the oem tunnel, it's just a square opening so you can tell if it's the right one
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My bad, you are right, the first is just basic tube chassis,the second is replica chassis and that is a replica . I asked Jim. see you learn everyday, i did not know that.
that's why mine use 10" 6 coil overs.
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I use QA1 shocks I think the specs go by the weight of the chassis but I don't think it matters so much that you have to get an exact spec setup
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My bad, you are right, the first is just basic tube chassis,the second is replica chassis and that is a replica . I asked Jim. see you learn everyday, i did not know that.
that's why mine use 10" 6 coil overs.
OK, so I noticed that yours have the rubber bushings on the ends and I was looking for the ones with a ball rod end like these
http://www.ebay.com/itm/120908392001?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/120908392001?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)
That is what it calls for on the chassis list, do you think it makes a big difference?
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I use QA1 shocks I think the specs go by the weight of the chassis but I don't think it matters so much that you have to get an exact spec setup
My main question on these is that there seems to be many different models, they all have a different compressed and extended height. What I need to know is those two values. These are the ones I was looking at
http://www.ebay.com/itm/QA1-Proma-Star-Drag-Shocks-DR4855B-DS401-Adjustable-Pr-/200629724651?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2eb676a5eb (http://www.ebay.com/itm/QA1-Proma-Star-Drag-Shocks-DR4855B-DS401-Adjustable-Pr-/200629724651?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2eb676a5eb)
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With your wheels on, lower your chassis to the floor and set the bottom of the frame at 5 to 6 inches off ground. Measure your bolt to bolt on the shock mounts. It should be around 12 inches. If it is then you need 10" compressed-14" extended.
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With your wheels on, lower your chassis to the floor and set the bottom of the frame at 5 to 6 inches off ground. Measure your bolt to bolt on the shock mounts. It should be around 12 inches. If it is then you need 10" compressed-14" extended.
Perfect! This makes a lot of sense, here I was worried that I had to get those before I started building the chassis, I'm glad I didn't.
Thanks for your help guys :)