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How To - Tips => Bat Wings & Spoilers => Topic started by: No Bull on May 03, 2012, 12:42:36 PM

Title: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: No Bull on May 03, 2012, 12:42:36 PM
My buddy Jeff and I worked out a design for bat wings that he's applied to his G24 build and I'm going to reapply on my G28.  He first started with the conventional caravan motor design:
Lamborghini Murcielago supercar replica Batwing video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkZnMVzO0Tw#ws)
This worked well but there was a lot of "shake" in the movement and the wings were not the strongest when you pushed down on the wing or at speed when they started catching wind and created lift. 

We worked on a design that uses a lever, linkages and a pivot.
Lamborghini Murcielago Supercar replica batwing levers and pushrods in action. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WCV_gX0GSY#ws)

And this is what the finished product looks like:
Lamborghini Murcielago Supercar Replica Batwing operation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QLj3c7q2DE#ws)

If your frame is open in the rear and can accommodate the rotating rod across the back, you can use one linear actuator to drive both wings in perfect sync.  If you cannot run the rod through the rear, you'll need to power each wing by an individual actuator and sync them manually and run them off a single switch.

In case anyone is wondering, the originals use a linear actuator or either side without the pivot system and they lift the wing via direct contact.  I like this pivot idea because It allows you to play around with the speed of the movement by simply changing the contact point and the amount of throw you have in your lever.  The rough drawing I'm attaching was a early concept to demonstrate the general idea.  I'll start another thread and show you how we decided to do our wing attachment (pivot) points 

Just remember that there are a million different ways to do this and this is just one idea that we are using.  :)

Enjoy

Chris
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: Tallon on May 03, 2012, 01:37:32 PM
Do you know where to get a linear actuator that isn't super expensive? Having trouble finding any.

edit: pololu
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: No Bull on May 03, 2012, 07:06:46 PM
We used the Autoloc 4" model that I found on EBay for around $130 a piece.

http://www.autoloc.com/catalog/Linear-Actuators/Linear-Actuators/LAD4/4-200-Lb-Capacity-Autoloc-Adjustable-Linear-Actuator-with-Rod-Bearing (http://www.autoloc.com/catalog/Linear-Actuators/Linear-Actuators/LAD4/4-200-Lb-Capacity-Autoloc-Adjustable-Linear-Actuator-with-Rod-Bearing)

These are high quality units with rod bearings, weather proof and include built in limit switches for overtravel.

This is one of those parts that I think it makes sense to spend a little more now and the quality will pay out over and over again in time.

Chris
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: dratts on May 03, 2012, 08:02:18 PM
My wings were actuated by the Fiero donor headlight motors.  I've never had a problem with them.  We rebuilt them anyway just to head off any future problems.
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: 01Lambiero on October 15, 2012, 11:34:45 AM
USMC_butler,  #1, if 80 mph will rip off your batwings, you might need to go to a welding class ::thumbup  I don't think that will happen.  As for triggering the wings with your cooling fan relay, at 80 mph your fans will not be coming on.  I don't think that you want them popping up while driving through congested traffic.  Just trigger them off of your speedo trans sensor to the speed that you really want them to open. Also, for actuating your rear spoiler, use the same input from your speedo.  Remember that your spoiler will have to be mounted to your rear framework and not just to your body. ::headbang  Jim
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: usmc_butler on October 15, 2012, 02:09:28 PM
Jim that's just my plan for my build nobody has to do anything I do. If I am not mistaken on the OEM cars the bat wings go down at high speeds due to wind on the wings and to keep them form separating from the body (around 100 I beleive). Second my welding skills have nothing to do with my fiberglass skills, my bat wings are Fiberglass not metal. Thank you for your other input, all suggestions will be taken in.

Later tomorrow I will be cleanin up the paddle shift diary and updating it with wiring diagrams and the code to make it functional. The only reason in bringing other options (ie. batwings, rear spoiler) up on that thread is due to the fact that I will be using the same box and same electronics to run my bat wings and spoiler.

Dustin
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: jb1 on October 15, 2012, 02:22:35 PM
 the fan relay would  be fine to use  to trigger  2 more relays  and drive the  bat wings, they would open at 220 and close below that, pretty good and simple idea.. the code I am working on   for the odometer  can also  print the speed. 
  I thought about  using that  to make the bat wings open and close depending on speed, just  more for visual effect of  taking off  and hitting 30 mph the wings start to open, same can be used on a rear spoiler.
 I just got lcd in today and  will  try to get code tested and finished  this week for odometer , and add in   output functions to drive actuator for spoiler  or bat wings
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: RT on October 15, 2012, 02:28:20 PM
I like to use power window motor drives to activate my devices.  They are cheap (usually abput $25 - $45 in a used parts yard) and are easy to mount.  Add limit switches to the end of travel to stop power to the motor.  In the case of the batwings, a radiator temperature switch that controls fans can trigger a relay to open the wings and when the signal from that switch stops the loss of signal returns the relay and powers the wing down drive.
I would use one motor with linkage to both batwings to save work and money and so they move together.

RT
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: jdinner on October 15, 2012, 06:38:04 PM
RT has always done amazing work and this descriptor is ideal too. The linear actuator above is also brilliant for the radiator intake panels but probably expensive.
Follow RT's advice and add relays with limit switches in conjunction with temperature switches to run your radiator intake panels.

Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: jb1 on October 15, 2012, 07:38:26 PM
Jdinner ,  a lot  of the idea with bat wing  controller with linear  is  in conjunction with the paddle shift, using the same arduino  that  controls paddle  shift  also control  the actuator for the bat wings.  The only additional cost would be the  extra actuator.
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: usmc_butler on October 15, 2012, 09:31:52 PM
The 4" actuators I use from pololu are around 100 bucks (I would use 1 to move both wings) anyway it moves .5" a second and will hold 500lbs and push/pull 150lbs. Wich is about the same speed as OEM and plenty strong for a fair price. The actuators also have built in safety limiters!
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: jb1 on October 15, 2012, 09:43:05 PM
Vf1 , slowing  them  down is easy. Just  use a rheostat  on the ground  and use it  to adjust  speed, just  like  how u dim and brighten  your dash lights
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: No Bull on October 15, 2012, 09:58:01 PM
I've heard of at least 8 different ways to do this and they all work from what I've seen.  I'm with you on this one Dustin and I'm going with the linear actuators as well.  There are a couple of "out of the box" multi position controllers designed for use with the actuators that can make the job simpler.  If you are wanting something closer to OEM, the actuators are used on the original.  Since you are using a Arduino board, you can use a multitude of input sensors (GPS, temperature, magnetic pulse, light, water, contact etc).  What type of 12 volt relay are you using for the actuators?  Does the board treat the actuator as a servo and tracks position or uses the limit switches for full open and closed positions?

Thanks,

Chris
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: jb1 on October 16, 2012, 12:59:23 AM
Jrk.12v3   works just like servo with position feedback
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: Tallon on October 16, 2012, 07:08:51 AM
21v3^
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: autopro on May 01, 2013, 06:41:00 PM
I like to use power window motor drives to activate my devices.  They are cheap (usually abput $25 - $45 in a used parts yard) and are easy to mount.  Add limit switches to the end of travel to stop power to the motor.  In the case of the batwings, a radiator temperature switch that controls fans can trigger a relay to open the wings and when the signal from that switch stops the loss of signal returns the relay and powers the wing down drive.
I would use one motor with linkage to both batwings to save work and money and so they move together.

RT

I have the vent window motors from a Windstar that I would like to use to control my batwings.  I would like to control them with the button on the center console for them to go up and down.  The problem is that these particular motors are reverse polarity, meaning they only have two wires.  Will it be possible to control these with a momentary switch?  How would I do it?  What type of relay would I need (as described in the quote above) that when there is a loss of power it will return the wings to the down position?

Here is a picture of the switch I would like to use; it’s located on the center console right below the radio.

Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: Murci-Me on May 01, 2013, 10:09:09 PM
I like to use power window motor drives to activate my devices.  They are cheap (usually abput $25 - $45 in a used parts yard) and are easy to mount.  Add limit switches to the end of travel to stop power to the motor.  In the case of the batwings, a radiator temperature switch that controls fans can trigger a relay to open the wings and when the signal from that switch stops the loss of signal returns the relay and powers the wing down drive.
I would use one motor with linkage to both batwings to save work and money and so they move together.

RT

I have the vent window motors from a Windstar that I would like to use to control my batwings.  I would like to control them with the button on the center console for them to go up and down.  The problem is that these particular motors are reverse polarity, meaning they only have two wires.  Will it be possible to control these with a momentary switch?  How would I do it?  What type of relay would I need (as described in the quote above) that when there is a loss of power it will return the wings to the down position?

Here is a picture of the switch I would like to use; it’s located on the center console right below the radio.

In all my years i've never heard of a reverse polarity motor, but what you are trying to achieve can be done easily with a momentary switch and a DPDT 12v relay.
You wouldnt set it up to be constantly powered, just supply the current when you want the wing to up, cut the power when its in its upright position, then use the relay to reverse the polarity  of the current supplied to the motor to lower the wing.
My console has the OEM arrangement of switches, and I use the same momentary switch to both raise and lower the wings.
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: autopro on May 02, 2013, 12:01:08 AM
As always you are correct Mike, I should've explained better that the window rocker switch is the one that reverses the polarity of the motor.  Those motors have two wires only.  I will check tomorrow on that DPDT relay to see what I can find.  Thanks and I'll let you know how it goes.
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: Murci-Me on May 02, 2013, 12:06:09 AM
The relays are cheap, available at Radio Shack or other electronic supply stores (Frys) for about $6. I just salvage them at the junkyard. If you dont have any luck tracking some down, just LMK and I can send you a couple N/C.
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: autopro on May 02, 2013, 12:10:59 AM
Appreciate it bud, I'll be going to the junkyard this weekend to pull some door latches from an old Mercedes I saw last week.  I'll pickup the momentary switch at radio shack tomorrow to see if I can have this figured out this weekend.  If it doesn't work out then I'm going to have to ask you for help with a wiring diagram.
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: usmc_butler on June 03, 2013, 02:50:36 PM
Ok so forgive my video it was just quick to show a point ::duh. It seems the van window motors move at a different speed and they aren't stepper motors (no feedback for a computer to tell what position each switch is in). So my first thought would be to hook a computer to them and when you hit the button it would run them for _ number of seconds until the wing is up then hit the button again and _ number of seconds until the wing is down. This wont work now due to the motors starting and stopping at different positions. Eventually down the road (unless you had 2 switches for each motor) you would have one batwing up and one down. How would this be corrected  ::scratch I would think you would need something like a what is on a car window motor to stop the motor when it reaches the top and same for when it is down. Any other ideas ::study?


http://youtu.be/fURDYdUYdKE (http://youtu.be/fURDYdUYdKE)

Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: RT on June 03, 2013, 09:42:00 PM
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7305/8943899930_36b14b9c68.jpg)

Here is how I suggest as a way to make the batwing drive.
The drawing in the corner shows a cross shaft with linkage to the batwings and driven by a linkage from a power window drive.  The cross shaft can be placed anywhere there is a clear area from side to side.
The wiring shown is operated by a temperature switch like those made for radiator fans that turn on when a pre-set temperature is reached and turn off when the radiators are cool enough.  This also has a manual switch to lift the batwings.  I included a timer circuit because if you leave the switch on and walk away, the circuit would continue to power the relay #1 and never shut off.  Including the timer circuit is just a safety feature.  When the timer times out, the batwings will close.  If you use a momentary switch you do not need the timer circuit but the batwings will close when the button is released.
Relay #1 when activated by either the temp switch or manual switch sends 12VDC through the “UP end of travel switch” and on to trip the relay #3.  Relay #3 trips and connects 12VDC to the drive motor, moving the batwings up until it trips the end of travel switch and stops power to the circuit.  Relay #1 can remain tripped by either switch but the power will not go anywhere.
When relay #1 is de-energized the 12VDC returns to the “DOWN end of travel switch” and on to trip relay #2.  Relay #2 trips and connects 12VDC to the drive motor, moving the batwings down until it trips the end of travel switch and stops power to the circuit.
In either up or down position the end of travel switches prevent any power drain when the batwings are at their end of travel.

RT
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: eddie on June 03, 2013, 10:26:55 PM
just quick stupid thing ,the sun roof opens lift up funtion whith longer prop?? nah fuggedaboudit.
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: usmc_butler on June 04, 2013, 08:17:36 AM
RT, BIG thanks to you ::salute! That is very detailed easy to understand...! ::beers


Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: usmc_butler on June 04, 2013, 10:20:45 AM
This is my new plan for the batwings. All electronics can be purchased on Pololu.com and/or ebay. Very easy to program when I get a chance I will post the code up to run it.
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: BigPines on June 04, 2013, 10:34:50 AM
I think the new idea is sound but I think a sway bar (even from the smallest vehicle) is overkill. You may have to create a custom bar for this application that will be strong enough but lighter weight. I will be very interested to see what you end up doing.

Anyone know how the real batwings work mechanically?
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: usmc_butler on June 04, 2013, 11:02:57 AM
Ya I agree it would be a bit over kill (hell most of my build is overkill anyway,  ::tongue) but you could get everything at a pick and pull for 10 bucks including the mounts, sway bar connectors that would connect to the batwings. For 10 bucks I couldn't even get a heim joint ::tongue. Also shouldn't have to worry about batwings flopping around ::headbang 
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: BigPines on June 04, 2013, 11:12:53 AM
Go for it man! I will be watching with interest. :)
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: apsara on June 04, 2013, 11:40:40 AM
you have too many parts that will fail during use. why not keep things simple and just use an electronic actuator? just daisy chain both of them together, hook it up to a switch and power supply and your done.
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: No Bull on June 04, 2013, 11:56:57 AM
Anyone know how the real batwings work mechanically?

Lamborghini keeps it really simple and they use one linear actuator per wing (see picture) and run the circuits in parallel.  The two advantages of using a single mechanical link with one actuator is half the noise (actuators can be pretty loud) and both wings will always stay in sync and open / close at the same time.  You can also adjust how slow or quickly you want your wings to operate by simply adjusting the lever / pivot points.

I agree that the easiest way is to follow what Lamborghini does and just use two actuators and there are a lot of options (and costs) out there that range from actuator speed to actuators with built in limit switches and position feedback.

Chris

 
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: BigPines on June 04, 2013, 01:23:06 PM
I doubt Lamborghini had these actuators custom built. Most linear actuators are built by one of a few companies. These exact actuators are probably available from another source. I assume you only found this picture and you don't have the actual parts to try to find some identifying manufacturer markings?
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: usmc_butler on June 04, 2013, 01:31:30 PM
you have too many parts that will fail during use. why not keep things simple and just use an electronic actuator? just daisy chain both of them together, hook it up to a switch and power supply and your done.

Too many parts ::study? A bar that connects to the wings and 1 actuator with a controller ::scratch? Guess 2 actuators and a button is so much less ::K


Right or wrong that is the way I will be doing it, if it doesn't work everyone will be the first to know ::salute
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: No Bull on June 04, 2013, 01:47:51 PM
I doubt Lamborghini had these actuators custom built. Most linear actuators are built by one of a few companies. These exact actuators are probably available from another source. I assume you only found this picture and you don't have the actual parts to try to find some identifying manufacturer markings?

The actuators pictured before are actual OEM Murci / LP640 parts.  I'm sure they are made by some other company and they have other applications.  The carry a Lamborghini part number but I'm assuming this is because they utilize a Audi / VW electrical connector that justifies a unique part number for this particular application. 

One interesting thing to note is how high up these connect (up by the hinges) which minimizes the required travel of the actuator arm but also speeds up the opening and closing of the wings.  This can make for a weaker wing and I've seen cars that the wings were broken on.  I believe that it was the roadster bat wings that had an additional lip on the rear of the wing to help keep it in place when the wings are up and the car is at speed (typically closed at speed since the car is running cooler then and they are retracted for less drag).

Chris
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: BigPines on June 04, 2013, 03:40:41 PM
Interesting stuff. I think Dustin's solution is perfectly reasonable. I would be a bit concerned about the extra weight of yet another sway bar but other than that, it should work quite well I think.

I think I'll poke around to find the same/similar actuator. Good actuators can actually be quite expensive. Typically, the faster they move, the weaker they are. While the more resistance/weight they can withstand, the slower they move. To find an actuator that can handle a lot of weight resistance (to handle any downward force on the wings), moves relatively quickly, and isn't quite noisy, could be a challenge. I don't think the OEM wings move very fast anyway so that may not be a big deal.

There is also the potential need for limit switches. I assume the OEM parts have them built in.
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: dratts on June 04, 2013, 04:03:59 PM
My bat wings were actuated by Fiero head light motors when I bought it.  They have been trouble free.  I don't remember whether or not I installed  Rodney Dickmans kit in them.  I might have.  They are thermostatically operated plus actuated by a console button.  I did have a dead battery one morning.  I traced it to cat foot prints on the console.  I now cover the cockpit at night for just that reason.
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: usmc_butler on June 04, 2013, 05:00:14 PM
This is just something a came up with I've seen some really small sway bars on some Fiesteva's and Geo's. This way they both come up and go down at the exact same time and no worries about flopping wings!

Here is where I order all of my electronics from pololo.com and here is all of there actuators http://www.pololu.com/search?query=actuator&x=0&y=0 (http://www.pololu.com/search?query=actuator&x=0&y=0) And here is all of the actuators with feedback (like I will be using) http://www.pololu.com/search?query=actuator+with+feedback&x=11&y=8 (http://www.pololu.com/search?query=actuator+with+feedback&x=11&y=8)

My actuator moves 1/2 a second (not sure if it will be fast enough tho)

Murcielago Replica Lamborghini First Start (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mqqQgHTD28#)
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: Murci-Me on June 04, 2013, 08:08:58 PM
you have too many parts that will fail during use. why not keep things simple and just use an electronic actuator? just daisy chain both of them together, hook it up to a switch and power supply and your done.

BINGO!
All this talk of linkage and sway bars and 3 relay systems with timers and temperature switches is far to complicated, its like re-inventing the wheel. Remember, "KISS" (keep it simple stupid)
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: CCIE on June 04, 2013, 08:49:36 PM
Well I have a very simple design..... But mind you I am only building a Diablo....

Here is my design.... Please review Picture below....

After locating the fulcrum point, mount wings
Pull string to raise the wings.
use a stick for the next step
poke with a stick or push with the stick to close the bat wings
at high speed wings might rotate...
use base ball bat if wings do not align properly...
If string gets tangled at high speed. yelling profanity generally eliminates the frustration. beating the steering wheel comm the nerves but careful the high price of the replica steering wheel might cause additional pain for some..... :P :P :P :P :P
JUST DON'T GO tal on ME ABOUT MY SUPER SECRET DESIGN ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: RT on June 04, 2013, 09:05:16 PM
you have too many parts that will fail during use. why not keep things simple and just use an electronic actuator? just daisy chain both of them together, hook it up to a switch and power supply and your done.

BINGO!
All this talk of linkage and sway bars and 3 relay systems with timers and temperature switches is far to complicated, its like re-inventing the wheel. Remember, "KISS" (keep it simple stupid)

The temperature control will make the batwings do what they are supposed to do: open when needed.
The relays provide a simple way to have them return to closed position when they are not required.
The manuals switch is for those who want to "play".  I explained the timer, only suggested IF you use a manual switch.
The cross shaft drive will keep the batwing motion synchronized and only require one motor.  Independent motor drives might not move equally.
Good, sound, mechanical construction will not fail any more than any factory builds which are far more complicated.

RT
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: Murci-Me on June 04, 2013, 09:18:52 PM
you have too many parts that will fail during use. why not keep things simple and just use an electronic actuator? just daisy chain both of them together, hook it up to a switch and power supply and your done.

BINGO!
All this talk of linkage and sway bars and 3 relay systems with timers and temperature switches is far to complicated, its like re-inventing the wheel. Remember, "KISS" (keep it simple stupid)

The temperature control will make the batwings do what they are supposed to do: open when needed.
The relays provide a simple way to have them return to closed position when they are not required.
The manuals switch is for those who want to "play".  I explained the timer, only suggested IF you use a manual switch.
The cross shaft drive will keep the batwing motion synchronized and only require one motor.  Independent motor drives might not move equally.
Good, sound, mechanical construction will not fail any more than any factory builds which are far more complicated.

RT
I understand what you're saying, but the whole linkage and fulcrum and and syncronization is not necessary. I've had my bat wings working for years, and have never had a problem. They run off 2 independent motors, and go up and down in unison evry time. I made a simple lever that attaches to a window motor (camaro headlight motors work just as well) that locks in the up position, and in the down position.
Yes, good mechanical construction will not fail, but it is not necessary to run a bar from one side of the car to the other to make the batwings work. That is just a poor design, no matter how well built.
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: CCIE on June 04, 2013, 10:15:10 PM
By the way...

I have a "Motor with cables"  assembly (bat wing actuator) Brand new and since I am no longer going to build a Revention I do not need it.... Make me a offer


Thanks
CCIE
 
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: RT on June 04, 2013, 11:01:28 PM
you have too many parts that will fail during use. why not keep things simple and just use an electronic actuator? just daisy chain both of them together, hook it up to a switch and power supply and your done.

BINGO!
All this talk of linkage and sway bars and 3 relay systems with timers and temperature switches is far to complicated, its like re-inventing the wheel. Remember, "KISS" (keep it simple stupid)

The temperature control will make the batwings do what they are supposed to do: open when needed.
The relays provide a simple way to have them return to closed position when they are not required.
The manuals switch is for those who want to "play".  I explained the timer, only suggested IF you use a manual switch.
The cross shaft drive will keep the batwing motion synchronized and only require one motor.  Independent motor drives might not move equally.
Good, sound, mechanical construction will not fail any more than any factory builds which are far more complicated.

RT
I understand what you're saying, but the whole linkage and fulcrum and and syncronization is not necessary. I've had my bat wings working for years, and have never had a problem. They run off 2 independent motors, and go up and down in unison evry time. I made a simple lever that attaches to a window motor (camaro headlight motors work just as well) that locks in the up position, and in the down position.

Murci-Me,
You say you used two window motor drives.  Window motor drives are good but two cost more and present two chances for failure.
What stops the motor drive at end of travel?
You also say you made a lever on the drive.  That is times two, one for each motor drive.
They must be connected to the batwings with something.  What?
The batwings do go up and down with motor drive but what causes the drives to run?
Are you using a manual switch?  SPDT?  DPDT?  An automatic switch?  Is the switch momentary contact?
Any pictures of the drives?

RT
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: Murci-Me on June 04, 2013, 11:10:51 PM
I paid $8 each at the junkyard for the window motors. These motors rarely (if at all) fail, and since they only make 1/2 revolution, they will last longer than the car lol. The lever ataches directly to the drive of the motor, and an adjustable link goes from the arm to the wing. The whole set-up is about 6" long. It is designed to stop the motor mechanically in the up and down position, not electronically. The system is controlled by a single momentary switch, and a single DPDT relay.
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: RT on June 04, 2013, 11:36:19 PM
I paid $8 each at the junkyard for the window motors. These motors rarely (if at all) fail, and since they only make 1/2 revolution, they will last longer than the car lol. The lever ataches directly to the drive of the motor, and an adjustable link goes from the arm to the wing. The whole set-up is about 6" long. It is designed to stop the motor mechanically in the up and down position, not electronically. The system is controlled by a single momentary switch, and a single DPDT relay.

OK, so you mounted two motors, made two adjustable linkages and control it with a momentary switch and a relay.  This gives you a manually activated drive only and while using a momentary switch you somehow change direction of the batwings so they go down too.
There is no electric limit switch to turn the electric power off to the drive so it is possible to continue powering the motor at end of travel and you rely on a mechanical stop to prevent over-travel. 
The batwings do not open when the cooling system requires, only when you want them to open.
My suggestion requires only one motor drive, the addition of two end of travel switches, two more relays, and a cross shaft to match your system.  Add a temperature switch and they will work like they are supposed to.
I guess that would be too complicated to make them work like they should.
I'm glad you like your batwings and I'm sure they work just fine.
You really need to be more open to ideas and see them for their worth.

RT
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: usmc_butler on June 05, 2013, 08:55:57 AM
Everyone has there own ideas, that is what this thread is about "Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas" Not one of the ideas here are wrong, some may be advanced, some maybe simple, it all depends what you want out of your car and the quality you want it done. I like the idea being OEM or as close as, since we are building REPLICAS, so I like the idea of my batwings coming up with a thermostat control and I also like the idea of being able to manually bring them up/down if one so chooses (like OEM). I personally am not going to buy 2 actuators at $150 bucks a piece or OEM (at whatever crazy price) when I can just use one actuator and a steel rod that runs from one side to the other and pivots making both batwings go up and down even....  ::salute


Similar to the picture

Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: LamboJayso on June 05, 2013, 12:34:37 PM
Alot of you may not know this but Lamborghini has a tail on the back of their batwings. And this is there b/c it does two things. It acts as a mechanical stop and stabilizes the wing in its raised position.

(http://i40.tinypic.com/2r6jo7b.jpg)
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: No Bull on June 05, 2013, 05:56:49 PM
I've deleted a couple posts that were off topic about bat wings and beginning to become more personal about another member.  Let's keep this on topic and if you have an issue with someone, ignore their posts or report them to the admins and we'll try to use best judgement and determine if the member is causing problems or just trying to be helpful. 

There are 100 different ways of building bat wings and I welcome all the ideas here.  It's up to the builder to decide which method they'll use or if they'll figure out the 101th way.   ::thumbup

Thanks,

Chris
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: Murci-Me on June 05, 2013, 09:07:07 PM
Alot of you may not know this but Lamborghini has a tail on the back of their batwings. And this is there b/c it does two things. It acts as a mechanical stop and stabilizes the wing in its raised position.

([url]http://i40.tinypic.com/2r6jo7b.jpg[/url])


So what you're saying is, the wing has a "mechanical" stop Jayso? Hmmm..........
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: No Bull on June 05, 2013, 09:11:24 PM
One more time.. this site is about sharing your build ideas, not criticizing other members or attacking a different approach to solving a universal problem!

Some ideas may be different and some ideas might involve more or less parts than other ideas..  WHO CARES!  The purpose of this site is to see all the ideas and help others decide on which way they build their cars.

There are no rules about how you do it as long as you do it and the quality and money you decide to spend is the builders choice.  Let's stop making this so personal, share the ideas and focus on building cars. 

Everyone has their own level of what quality and authenticity means to them so respect that and let's move on.

Chris
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: Murci-Me on June 05, 2013, 09:15:24 PM
Everyone has there own ideas, that is what this thread is about "Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas" Not one of the ideas here are wrong, some may be advanced, some maybe  ::duh simple, it all depends what you want out of your car and the quality you want it done. I like the idea being OEM or as close as, since we are building REPLICAS, so I like the idea of my batwings coming up with a thermostat control and I also like the idea of being able to manually bring them up/down if one so chooses (like OEM). I personally am not going to buy 2 actuators at $150 bucks a piece or OEM (at whatever crazy price) when I can just use one actuator and a steel rod that runs from one side to the other and pivots making both batwings go up and down even....  ::salute


Similar to the picture


$150 each?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Linear-Actuator-225lb-Adjustable-Stroke-12-Volt-DC-/130437730202?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e5eb1cf9a&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Linear-Actuator-225lb-Adjustable-Stroke-12-Volt-DC-/130437730202?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e5eb1cf9a&vxp=mtr)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Linear-Actuator-2-Stroke-225-Pound-Max-Lift-12-or-24-Volt-DC-Heavy-Duty-/320948568171?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aba06806b (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Linear-Actuator-2-Stroke-225-Pound-Max-Lift-12-or-24-Volt-DC-Heavy-Duty-/320948568171?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aba06806b)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Heavy-Duty-Linear-Actuator-4-Stroke-225-Pound-Max-Lift-12-Volt-DC-/330931244671?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d0d0a0e7f (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Heavy-Duty-Linear-Actuator-4-Stroke-225-Pound-Max-Lift-12-Volt-DC-/330931244671?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d0d0a0e7f)



[url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-High-Performance-Linear-Actuator-225lb-with-Potentiometer-Output-12-Volt-DC-/110854428819?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19cf705893&vxp=mtr]http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-High-Performance-Linear-Actuator-225lb-with-Potentiometer-Output-12-Volt-DC-/110854428819?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19cf705893&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-High-Performance-Linear-Actuator-225lb-with-Potentiometer-Output-12-Volt-DC-/110854428819?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19cf705893&vxp=mtr)[/url]



[url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-DEWERT-MEGAMAT-MBZ-heavy-duty-linear-actuator-8-stroke-1300lb-12V-or-24Volt-/251285088449?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a81c228c1]http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-DEWERT-MEGAMAT-MBZ-heavy-duty-linear-actuator-8-stroke-1300lb-12V-or-24Volt-/251285088449?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a81c228c1 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-DEWERT-MEGAMAT-MBZ-heavy-duty-linear-actuator-8-stroke-1300lb-12V-or-24Volt-/251285088449?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a81c228c1)[/url]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wireless-12V-DC-Remote-Control-Kit-for-Linear-Actuators-Progressive-Automations-/281104149093?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item41731cea65 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wireless-12V-DC-Remote-Control-Kit-for-Linear-Actuators-Progressive-Automations-/281104149093?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item41731cea65

[url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wireless-12V-DC-Remote-Control-Kit-for-Linear-Actuators-Progressive-Automations-/281104149093?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item41731cea65)[/url]
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: No Bull on June 05, 2013, 09:18:50 PM
Alot of you may not know this but Lamborghini has a tail on the back of their batwings. And this is there b/c it does two things. It acts as a mechanical stop and stabilizes the wing in its raised position.

([url]http://i40.tinypic.com/2r6jo7b.jpg[/url])


So what you're saying is, the wing has a "mechanical" stop Jayso? Hmmm..........


The OEM actuators have build in limit switches that tell the motors when they've reached "full top" and "full down".  Most aftermarket actuators also have this feature and they are mechanically adjustable inside the motor housing.

The ledge on the bat wings in the picture is of a later bat wing as the early bat wings didn't always have this ledge.  The ledge was probably added as an additional block for full top position and was probably added as a safety feature in case the actuator linkage broke and it's only the hinges saving it from lifting off the car.

The picture obviously shows a car that's been hit hard in the quarter panel and enough defection and damage has occurred to force that ledge on the wing outside of the quarter opening.

Chris
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: usmc_butler on June 05, 2013, 09:21:18 PM
All of the actuators on my car require feedback for the computer system. Thanks for taking the time to check on them for me.
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: Murci-Me on June 05, 2013, 09:23:22 PM
I don't see feedback on any of them MM   ::duh


2 have feedback potentiometers, another has adjustable limit switches.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-High-Performance-Linear-Actuator-225lb-with-Potentiometer-Output-12-Volt-DC-/110854428819?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19cf705893&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-High-Performance-Linear-Actuator-225lb-with-Potentiometer-Output-12-Volt-DC-/110854428819?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19cf705893&vxp=mtr)
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: usmc_butler on June 05, 2013, 09:34:07 PM
That one doesn't have feedback... The actuators I use will have 5 wires, 2 ground and 12 volt and 3 for feedback for the micro computer.


Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: Murci-Me on June 05, 2013, 10:55:29 PM
That one doesn't have feedback... The actuators I use will have 5 wires, 2 ground and 12 volt and 3 for feedback for the micro computer.

What is the feedback you are talking about? The only feedback a LA can provide is in a POT, which can either be a 2 wire or 3 wire system, both of which work identically the same. I'm pretty sure this is a 3 wire feedback actuator. If its not, the are hundreds of them available on Ebay and elsewhere that will suit your needs in the $50-$60 price range.
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: Robert on June 06, 2013, 02:27:35 AM
That one doesn't have feedback... The actuators I use will have 5 wires, 2 ground and 12 volt and 3 for feedback for the micro computer.


What is the feedback you are talking about? The only feedback a LA can provide is in a POT, which can either be a 2 wire or 3 wire system, both of which work identically the same. I'm pretty sure this is a 3 wire feedback actuator. If its not, the are hundreds of them available on Ebay and elsewhere that will suit your needs in the $50-$60 price range.
I believe the bat wing motor I will use are here. http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1527522 (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1527522)
I don't think a tenth of a possible 10th  second difference with the bat wings opening will make a difference to me.

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Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: Fieroking on June 06, 2013, 06:41:11 PM
I agree there are a number of different ways to do the Bat Wings. The system on Dratt's car is fairly simple, it uses 2 88 Fiero headlight motors one for each wing, The control module needs power and a ground and a signal to move. I wired the system into the relay box for the engine and have a relay controlled by the ECM (a ground) and also wired to a switch in the cockpit to provide the same ground. Thus the Bat wings are controlled by the ECM and can be over ridden by the switch in the cockpit. The nice thing about the motors and controller is there are no limit switches, the controller uses current limiting to shut down the motors in either direction. The same controller and motors are used in the late 80's Firebird.

Joe Sokol
Fieroking
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: String on June 07, 2013, 06:59:43 AM
As input of ideas , I purchased 4 x satellite dish actuators which were new ( but cheap) and they have had to be shortened for purpose but otherwise the microswitches inside are fully adjustable for stops at each end of travel ( about 50mm) ,and being 30v are then the perfect speed of travel.
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: RT on June 18, 2013, 07:06:53 PM
I want to apologize to everyone here for my misleading diagram on to how to make an effective batwing drive.  I don’t know what I was thinking.
There were some here who knew immediately that I was way off base and called me out on that.  Murci-me recognized the system I proposed was really “Rube Goldberg”.  That was very perceptive.
So I considered again the problem of how to make the batwings move with an eye on simplicity.  I think I “hit it” this time.
Please review this revised method and maybe someone can incorporate it into their build.
Thanks again for your patience with this issue.

RT

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2808/9078847069_992ee638d5_b.jpg)


Here is an explanation of how it works:
“A” Pull string on dash
“B” Cat is released from cage
“C” Mouse sees cat and runs up tube which tilts and releases golf ball
“D” Golf ball rolls down ramp and lands on lever on bucket of water
 “E” Bucket tips pouring water through funnel into tank
“F” Tank fills causing float to rise with linkage releasing bowling ball
“G” Bowling ball pushes swing arm with match and lights candle
“H” Candle burns through string, releases hammer, strikes button switch
“I” Fan blows ship across water
“J” Ship hits barrel rolling it down ramp
“K” Barrel starts domino effect
“L” Domino hits meat cleaver and cuts string
“M” Cut string releases weight, pulling string
“N” String pull levers pushing up batwings
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: lance345 on June 19, 2013, 12:30:36 AM
Crap, I'm allergic to cats. Otherwise I would do this for sure.  ;D
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: SchulzeA on June 19, 2013, 12:42:35 AM
That seems much easier!  ::salute I can't help but ask, how do the wings go back down?  ::angel
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: am33r on June 19, 2013, 01:30:50 AM
Glad you asked. When you want something to go down you follow this design:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNdyLadq69Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNdyLadq69Q#)

It does require a windshield and vents as well.
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: Murci-Me on July 14, 2013, 01:17:22 PM
I want to apologize to everyone here for my misleading diagram on to how to make an effective batwing drive.  I don’t know what I was thinking.
There were some here who knew immediately that I was way off base and called me out on that.  Murci-me recognized the system I proposed was really “Rube Goldberg”.  That was very perceptive.
So I considered again the problem of how to make the batwings move with an eye on simplicity.  I think I “hit it” this time.
Please review this revised method and maybe someone can incorporate it into their build.
Thanks again for your patience with this issue.

RT

([url]http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2808/9078847069_992ee638d5_b.jpg[/url])


Here is an explanation of how it works:
“A” Pull string on dash
“B” Cat is released from cage
“C” Mouse sees cat and runs up tube which tilts and releases golf ball
“D” Golf ball rolls down ramp and lands on lever on bucket of water
 “E” Bucket tips pouring water through funnel into tank
“F” Tank fills causing float to rise with linkage releasing bowling ball
“G” Bowling ball pushes swing arm with match and lights candle
“H” Candle burns through string, releases hammer, strikes button switch
“I” Fan blows ship across water
“J” Ship hits barrel rolling it down ramp
“K” Barrel starts domino effect
“L” Domino hits meat cleaver and cuts string
“M” Cut string releases weight, pulling string
“N” String pull levers pushing up batwings


Copied to preserve
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: BigPines on July 14, 2013, 04:07:30 PM
I honestly didn't take this as a jab. I just thought it was very witty and entertaining. I enjoyed it at nobody's expense. :)
Title: Re: Bat Wing Lifting & Closing Ideas
Post by: Murci-Me on July 14, 2013, 05:14:21 PM
I enjoyed it also. My name was mentioned in the post, and it was directed at me. Notice I didn't respond to it though, or the two other posts geared at getting a response from me. I was willing to let bye-gones be bye-gones, but not him.