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How To - Tips => Other / Everything Else => Topic started by: BigPines on November 08, 2013, 04:00:02 PM
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It has been quiet on the forum today so I thought I'd throw something interesting out there...at least interesting to me. ;)
I currently live in the People's Republic of California and we have a heck of a lot of laws here. There is pretty much a law for everything you can think of. The laws regarding automobile registration, insurance and emissions are some of the most complex and restrictive in the nation. With this in mind, I started thinking since I plan to build a car, maybe there is an opportunity to benefit if I plan things out correctly.
A little background on the "state" of affairs here. From what I understand there are heavy restrictions on engine swaps here. The engine type must match the one that was associated to the VIN or you won't pass smog. 1975 and older vehicles are smog exempt. SB100 (manufactured vehicles) are also smog exempt but require fees, inspections and general jumping through hoops I am not real excited about.
So here is what I was thinking, what if I purchased a running pre-1976 vehicle and build my car around it? The liability insurance would be cheap, cheap registration, no smog and no inspections or extra fees.
Now to the problem, I want as little of a pre-1976 vehicle in my car as possible. I don't want the weight or the antiquated engineering or the rust or...or...or...So how much of the car do I have to use for my built car to be considered the same car as the pre-1976 car? Obviously, the frame/chassis seems like the reasonable part I would have to use. Do I have to use the whole thing? Can I use only the center of the frame? Do I have to use a certain percentage of the frame? Can I use only the part of the frame that has the VIN on it?
To be clear, I want this to be legal...technically...so the department of motor vehicles has nothing to say about it. So what part (and how much of that part) would be considered the car?
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Unless it's changed sence I lived there you were allowed to put any engine you wanted in your car as long as it was at least as new as the car that you are putting it into and has all the smog devices that come with it which might include the transmission that came with the donor engine. And it has to pass smog.
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Unless it's changed sence I lived there you were allowed to put any engine you wanted in your car as long as it was at least as new as the car that you are putting it into and has all the smog devices that come with it which might include the transmission that came with the donor engine. And it has to pass smog.
Engine must be from same model year or newer as the body with all smog equipment from the newer engine. Engine also must be a matching body type engine (ex. you can't put a truck motor in a car).
I haven't heard anything regarding the type of engine has to be the same as original...i know when i was into honda's we used to swap 4 bangers for v6's....things may have changed since then though...
You may want to run down to the DMV and buy the "Vehicle code book" last time i bought one it was $16 (back in 2007/2008). Price may have changed....it has all the codes and regulations in it for california though...guaranteed to put you to sleep at night...
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Good info guys. Maybe I will buy the code book (or maybe it is available online for free). Still, there are other reasons listed above why it seems advantageous to register the car as a pre-1976. So again, my question is what is the least I can use from the original car and be legal? Maybe nobody knows? Maybe it is a gray area?
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Bigpines,
Here is another route you might consider. I can sell you a chassis with a international VIN number and a Certificate of Origin. Now you have a brand new vehicle to register and hopefully no kitcar hassle. But the car will be titled as what it most closely resembles, so 1975 and earlier no smog. Also, it is considered a new car by the bank. Best of everything.
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I live in California as well. And as far as I know about car laws is that u can change as much as u want in the car (body wise) but u can't alter the original look. So u can put big fenders body kits from wing west lol but it has to still resemble the original car. If u change the original look of the car that's when u start getting tickets for illegal modification. Actually California doesn't allow any modifications to the car besides rims but cops don't enforce them at all. It is illegal to drop ure suspension. Tinted windows. Sound system but we hardly get tickets for it. On a motorcycle u can change nothing. Any type of aftermarket exhaust on a motorcycle is illegal. Same with cars but cops don't enforce it.
So mainly it goes down to the cop who is out there. Sometimes u will get a cop that is completely an A hole and will give u a ticket for every single thing or u will just a cop that won't even car.
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76mx, thanks but whatever frame/chassis I use, I plan to make/modify it myself. It is just too much money to buy a custom chassis from anyone.
solrac, I gotta get out of Cali! What a screwed up place.
Another possible solution is build a custom chassis and get it registered in another state (like AZ) which will give me (or more accurately, an AZ resident helping me) a VIN. Than all I have to do is bring it into Cali. They will almost certainly require an inspection but will it require smog? Would I still have to jump through all the SB100 hoops? Maybe there is no avoiding that. *sigh*
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If u have ppl in other states where they don't require smog or things like that the just register it there and keep it like that . I have a friend who own property in Washington. Up north they don't require smog so he has his truck register in Washington and just drives it here with Washington plates. He has had it like that for over 10yrs and no problem. Just make sure u have insurance. Lol
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Interesting. I guess if I "gave" it to my bro in AZ, he could loan it to me for "a while" ;)
We just better make sure we don't ever have a falling out! ::duh
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Here in my area if Illinois, its no muffler, no converter, no problem. ::thumbup
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Oh, you mean you still live in the land of the free? Don't worry, the communists are eventually coming for you too. ;)
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Sb100 isn't that hard and its what you want to do if you have a modified drivetrain in CA
If you leave the drivetrain stock you can just use the title of the donor car, perfectly legal for a murci replica to be titled as a 1984 fiero
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OK, if this is the case, then back to the original question...How much of the 1984 Fiero do I need to keep for it to be considered the same car? The tub? Part of the frame?
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Legally speaking u can't keep it as the regular registration cus u will modify it to the point where it is not a fiero resemblense. As far as sb100. Well u can do whatever u want to it. Lol cus it's a custom car.
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Solrac that's simply not correct in CA. You can keep it titled as a fiero regardless of what car it resembles now . The purpose of using a fiero is usually the lower cost compared to scratch building a custom chassis and drivetrain
With sb100 you don't need to use a fiero donor , or any donor at all. You can make the chassis out of steel tubing and still get a VIN number, so under sb100 there is no "minimum " amount of donor car that needs to be used.
If keeping it titled as a fiero generally you keep the chassis and drivetrain of the fiero , and are subject to the same smog laws as a fiero. Its just like a fiero with an extreme body kit on it
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It is illegal to change anything that was not meant by the manufacture in California. Here are a few dmv articles. But they don't enforce it which is good for us. Lol.
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d12/vc24008.htm (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d12/vc24008.htm)
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d12/vc28071.htm (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d12/vc28071.htm)
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d12/vc26101.htm (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d12/vc26101.htm)
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d12/vc27151.htm (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d12/vc27151.htm)
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Couldn't you register it in a neighboring state with less stringent laws to get a clean title from another state and then just have someone from that state "sell it" to you so you could transfer the title to your name and get a California title?
I've bought out of state cars before and all that is required here is a dealer or DMV inspection and a $25 fee. The inspections are basically a joke and often they just check the VIN and you are on your way.
Chris
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Yeah No Bull, I will probably do something similar.
I guess nobody knows the answer to my question. I already know of ways to get my car on the road in Cali. I was just looking for a creative alternative. For instance, if I could use 12" of a pre-1976 original chassis (the part that had the VIN on it), that would have some advantages. On the other hand, if SB100 isn't that bad, that may be easiest way to go.
This must come up all the time in restorations. Those guys replace the entire frame sometimes. I wonder what they do?
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It is illegal to change anything that was not meant by the manufacture in California. Here are a few dmv articles. But they don't enforce it which is good for us. Lol.
[url]http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d12/vc24008.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d12/vc24008.htm[/url])
[url]http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d12/vc28071.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d12/vc28071.htm[/url])
[url]http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d12/vc26101.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d12/vc26101.htm[/url])
[url]http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d12/vc27151.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d12/vc27151.htm[/url])
again , you are incorrect . The statutes you list regulate only specific items of the car, they do not make it illegal to change "anything"
the statutes you reference relate to lowered suspensions , glass, lighting and bumpers . There are additional statutes related to mufflers , tinted windows , smog components etc. but none of those mean that you can't modify a car . You just follow the statute , for example you can lower a suspension but it must comply with the statute . You can put on aFternarket performance parts , but they need a CARB exemption order number . As with all laws , there is an exception to everything .
Making a blanket statement that you can't legally change anything on a car in CA, or that it had to resemble the original car, are simply inaccurate and frankly uneducated comments for those of us into kit cars
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Yeah No Bull, I will probably do something similar.
I guess nobody knows the answer to my question. I already know of ways to get my car on the road in Cali. I was just looking for a creative alternative. For instance, if I could use 12" of a pre-1976 original chassis (the part that had the VIN on it), that would have some advantages. On the other hand, if SB100 isn't that bad, that may be easiest way to go.
This must come up all the time in restorations. Those guys replace the entire frame sometimes. I wonder what they do?
I answered your question directly . If you're going custom chassis , do sb100. If you're using a fiero , you have the choice of keeping it as a fiero (which limits your power train mods as you'll need to pass smog ) or do sb100 to get a permanent exemption from smog
No , using 12 inches of a 1975 frame with the VIN stamping in your build will not let you get away with not following the sb100 process , otherwise all the hot rodders would have simply done that .
By the way almost all the articles on sb100 online are outdated . The stories of all the applications being used up on January 2 haven't been true for at least 5 years since the recession . I got my sb100 in August 2011 and another mm member got theirs in October 2012. They are now available almost year round as the number of custom builds has declined due to the economy
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No, I'm sorry but you didn't answer my question - not even indirectly. The closest you came was "If keeping it titled as a fiero generally you keep the chassis and drivetrain of the fiero" I didn't ask what people generally do. That doesn't answer the question in my first post which is, what is the least I can use of the original donor and be legal. What if I don't want to keep the drivetrain? What if I don't want to keep the whole chassis? What about just the tub? What about part of the tub? Is it still considered a Fiero or do I no longer have a choice but to go SB100? There must be a definition of what is considered the vehicle out there somewhere but it seems nobody knows it. That is fine. I don't know it either - that is why I am asking.
Sounds like it is not worth trying to find a loophole here if SB100 is really that easy.
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With that attitude i will be sure not to respond when you have further questions about Ca sb100,
good way to alienate The only one in this forum who has actually done the sb100 process recently on a kit car
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Wow! I am sorry you feel alienated but I fail to see how that is my doing. ::scratch
Maybe I misread your intention but you are the one that came here smacking down solrac. Maybe you felt he deserved it but I thought it was a little harsh. Either way, I appreciated the clarification from someone who seems to know.
Then you got attitude with me acting put out that I keep asking a question you already "directly" answered. When I politely point out that my original question has not been answered, I have somehow showed an attitude and alienated you? I meant no offense. Could it be you are just having a bad day buddy?
I would definitely appreciate your help in the future but if you decide to withhold that from me as revenge for some sort of misunderstanding, nothing I can do about that. I'm sure your experience and advice is valuable but I'm also sure I can figure it out without you if necessary.
My apologies for anything I may have said that was rude. Again, that was not my intent.