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How To - Tips => Engine & Transmission => Topic started by: Marcoavent on January 09, 2015, 06:29:45 AM
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Hi guys
I'm busy building a aventador and I now have to choose an engine
I want a engine that will sound like the original and also produce 700-800hp
I'm not sure if the bmw V12 is the way to go
I have an 2.0 Mitsubishi Evo 8 engine that is built for 900hp. Offcourse it sound allot different from the Lambo V12.
I kinda like this sound and I can get an RS6 engine
Audi RS6 exhaust sound (MUST hear!!!) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF1SYiPGs2k#)
Is their any other engine I can go for ?
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There is nothing that will sound like an Lambo motor especially something that will put out that kind of power your looking at. This has been discussed several times in the past. The Lambo motors get there sound from the firing order, piston size, being balanced, cam & there high rpm's they spin. If your looking at a motor with the power your talking chances are it will have to have a cam and will make it have a lope to it. I would love to have someone prove me wrong because your searching after what we all want.
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A V12 of some sort is a must to get that sound. Audi, BMW, Mercedes and VW all make V12s that sound close but none of them are in the power range you describe so you'd have to spend a lot of money on boost etc. to get there.
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That's my problem....... Getting a V12 to 700hp is allot of money and work
My Evo is at 900hp and it didn't cost me an arm and a leg
I also looked at the BMW M3 4.0 V8 engin with supercharge but that's going to cost $20 000
I can buy a complete RS6 for $10 000 and then use the drivetrain aswell
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I am personally considering a BMW 760li. You can get them for well under $10K and they sound great but they "only" make 440 HP. On the streets, that is plenty of power for me.
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I have a BMW 850i with aftermarket exhaust, and I can tell you it dont sound nothing like a Lambo v12 or v10. But maybe in a midengine setup with shorter exhaust of some type it might sound better..
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You're right tonypaul, nothing really sounds like a Lamborghini. All you can try to do is get closer by using something that sounds more exotic. Most of the V12s I've heard have that exotic sound.
What are you planning to do with that 850i engine? You currently have an LS3 in your Diablo if I recall correctly.
Do you have any videos that can demonstrate the sound?
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You're right tonypaul, nothing really sounds like a Lamborghini. All you can try to do is get closer by using something that sounds more exotic. Most of the V12s I've heard have that exotic sound.
What are you planning to do with that 850i engine? You currently have an LS3 in your Diablo if I recall correctly.
Do you have any videos that can demonstrate the sound?
My Diablo has a turbo LS4, the V12 is still in my 850i sitting in my driveway. No videos as of now for the v12 maybe when its warmer I can do some.
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That's right, you have an LS4 in your Diablo. Are you planning a project for the V12 or are you going to keep her a BMW? :)
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I have alot of plans but just no time to do them in..... I have a LS3 in my garage that I would like to put in the 850i, since I dislike the BMW v12 so much. But right now I dont have the time nor the space to do it.
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Maybe that is why I thought you had an LS3...cause you do! ;)
What don't you like about the v12? Maybe it will be for sale someday? ;)
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VW W12.
Check out this video on YouTube:
http://youtu.be/F-HDbhgca5g (http://youtu.be/F-HDbhgca5g)
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http://youtu.be/D-iV59F7E7s (http://youtu.be/D-iV59F7E7s)
this is what you want then, the Mercedes M120, but be ready the gearbox is going to hurt your feelings. This engine is capable of 1000lb/ft of tq and that is what destroys gearboxes
and remember this is the engine in the Zonda ::rocker
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You're right SchulzeA, the VW is actually a W12 not a V12. Sounds great doesn't it?
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Actually, the engine in the last video is a 5.5l Twin Turbo V12 (M275). It makes 493HP stock in the S600 (W220) which can be found for around $11K. It sounds great to me!
The M120 is a 6.0L V12 that makes 389HP stock. This engine is found in the '91 - '98 600SEL, 600SELC, CL600 (W140) and the '92 - '01 600SL & SL600 (R129). These cars can be had in the $7K - $9K range.
Love the discussion. Let's keep it going! :drool
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I am installing a "flat planed crank" on my LS4 next month this will change the firing order and the exhaust sound dramatically as Ferarri's use them on their V8's. search flat planed crank exhaust sound on youtube. I experimented alot in the last few months and found a "chambered" custom exhaust system gives the V8 a high pitch sound but im sure 180 deg headers with a V8 and flat planed crank will give as nice a sound as you can get from a V8. Just some of my .02 cents hope it helps ::thumbup
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Very interesting Fatboyslim. Please post a video with the sound when you have it running. Very interested to hear what you come up with.
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will do Pines its in progress ..im actually using the LS4 motor from the chassis i got back from roblp a while back. should have pics and video next month ::thumbup
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180* headers on a flat plane crank should sound closer to a normal V8, as it will cancel out the effects of the flat plane exhaust pulse and scavaging effect. The purpose of 180* headers is to produce the effects of a flat plane crank on a 90-180-90 cross plane engine like the original LS crank. So it should sound great with the new crank and firing order, without special 180* headers! It will be a cool engine when complete. Did you have to get a custom cam?
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You may be right about that my friend...im using the lingenfelter crank conversion with beefed up valvetrain and cam, i love the advantage of having more energy applied to my wheels versus turning the crankshaft and the quicker and higher revving. i read that the flat planed cranks advantage over cross planed is that it doesnt use heavy counterweights and the exhaust scavenging is mucho better due to the exhaust pulses making it more responsive wich i love. a cross plane gives a smoother delivery but the counterweights use more energy because theres more heavy rotating mass so the end result is a flat planed crank delivers more power to your wheels versus power lost in turning a heavier cross planed crank, and theres a significant difference in the sound and performance.. will keep you posted with pics were just starting on it. ::thumbup
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Toyota also has a V12 I think it is the 1GZ FE engine their are a few guys getting good pose from them with a twin turbo setup
I'm going to look into the toyota V12
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http://www.superstreetonline.com/features/130-0704-top-secret-v12-twin-turbo-toyota-supra/ (http://www.superstreetonline.com/features/130-0704-top-secret-v12-twin-turbo-toyota-supra/)
Not a very neet setup
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I had a corvette engineer tell me several years ago, that intake design will greatly affect what the engine will sound like.
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Yeah the Mercedes v12 from 1993-2002 is the closest supercar sounding engine
And its super cheap too . You can find complete cars under $3000
Always better to get the whole car as you need lots of the electronics associated with it
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Please let us know the specific model(s) you are referring to Tusabes. I am very interested. Mercedes made several models with V12s between those years but I can't find any that typically sell for less than $6,500.
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Toyota V12 regularly available down here in NZ and local companies make the bell housing
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/SearchResults.aspx?searchString=1gzfe&rptpath=all&type=Search&searchType=all&generalSearch_keypresses=5&generalSearch_suggested=0&generalSearch_suggestedCategory= (http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/SearchResults.aspx?searchString=1gzfe&rptpath=all&type=Search&searchType=all&generalSearch_keypresses=5&generalSearch_suggested=0&generalSearch_suggestedCategory=)
and lots of 1gz info here
http://www.lextreme.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&f=56&page=1&pp=30&sort=lastpost&order=desc&daysprune=-1 (http://www.lextreme.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&f=56&page=1&pp=30&sort=lastpost&order=desc&daysprune=-1)
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Any 600sec 600sel s600 or sl600
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/cto/4822835886.html (http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/cto/4822835886.html)
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/cto/4819550076.html (http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/cto/4819550076.html)
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Wow, those ARE good values. They have the 6.0l V12 making 389HP. Gas mileage is an impressive 12 MPG combined! ;)
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Not only are they good values , this is the same engine used in the original pagani Zonda. It sounds like a formula 1 car. And the best part if you buy a whole car is you can keep the drivetrain and resell just a few expensive parts and recover your purchase price and even make money . There are numerous parts on these cars that quickly sell for $300-600 each used
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Not only are they good values , this is the same engine used in the original pagani Zonda. It sounds like a formula 1 car. And the best part if you buy a whole car is you can keep the drivetrain and resell just a few expensive parts and recover your purchase price and even make money . There are numerous parts on these cars that quickly sell for $300-600 each used
What transmission automatic and standard could you use for that engine?
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I don't know. What transmission did Pagani use ? That would definitely work
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cima
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Hi Pedro I'm not sure on the mercTrans but I know how to mod the bmw auto Trans to use paddle shift it just requires 2 wires so I suspect the merc Trans is from the same supplier so maybe it's similar does anyone know the model of merc autotrans
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Thanks Tusabes !!!
I think we found it the Merc V12
http://carbuying.jalopnik.com/how-to-make-a-used-mercedes-sound-like-a-pagani-zonda-1611782156 (http://carbuying.jalopnik.com/how-to-make-a-used-mercedes-sound-like-a-pagani-zonda-1611782156)
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This is what I can get http://www.gumtree.co.za/a-cars-bakkies/other-eastern-cape/2002-mercedes+benz-s600-6-0-v12-must-go-in-next-three-days/1001213753410910000043609 (http://www.gumtree.co.za/a-cars-bakkies/other-eastern-cape/2002-mercedes+benz-s600-6-0-v12-must-go-in-next-three-days/1001213753410910000043609)
It's the W220 with the 5.5L V12 Bi-turbo engine 493hp
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Yep, that's a great engine Marcoavent.
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This is what I can get [url]http://www.gumtree.co.za/a-cars-bakkies/other-eastern-cape/2002-mercedes+benz-s600-6-0-v12-must-go-in-next-three-days/1001213753410910000043609[/url] ([url]http://www.gumtree.co.za/a-cars-bakkies/other-eastern-cape/2002-mercedes+benz-s600-6-0-v12-must-go-in-next-three-days/1001213753410910000043609[/url])
It's the W220 with the 5.5L V12 Bi-turbo engine 493hp
No that's not the bi turbo ! The turbo came out in 2003 and is very different just by looking at the engine
2000-2002 are the worst years to get .
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Yep, you are right Tusabes. The twin turbo came out in 2003. I had my dates a little off. The 1998 - 2002 are still nice and powerful (362HP) and they get better gas mileage at 16 MPG combined. Still a great option.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_S-Class_%28W220%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_S-Class_%28W220%29)
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The earlier m120 is far better. Plus the cars are cheaper .
You really want to avoid the 2000-2002. Besides being more expensive ,
Those later engines up to 2002 have problems with the oil cooler that's in the V of the engine . And the electronics are fully mated to the car so you have to use the engine transmission gear lever and key . Otherwise it will not run.
The older m120 is not so tied into everything and you can use the Cima transmission that Pagani used
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I was looking hard at the 95 to 2000 model until I read all the horror stories with the wiring in the engine compartment that runs behind the engine gets too hot and the insilation on the wires goes brittle and things short out its very common the wire was only designed to last a few years merc did nothing about it
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The biodegradable wiring harness was used from 1991-1995, NOT 1995-2000
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Thanks my bad I was not sure of the year the car I was looking at using was a 95 and I was warned to steer clear
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Allot of good info !!!!
Just to clear it all up
What V12 twin turbo engine is the best to go for ?
What N/A V12 is the best ?
I've also read that these engines had mojore cooling issues I don't think that will be a problem in the Aventador's body.
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So as I was sitting on the workshop floor and staring at the Gordini we are building it hit me....weight !
I did some research and with my rough calculation the V12 will weigh +- 500lbs more than the 4 cylinder engine and cost 4 times more to get to 800hp
The only upside is the sound of the V12 and it will probably have double the torque
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not quite on the weight
the BMW (M70) come in at 500# I am guessing the M120 is less than 60# more natural
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That's engine only, you have to keep in mind that you'll need bigger oil and inter cooler on the V12
Also your gearbox and running gear will have to be stronger and heavier
Your rear tube frame and mountings where the V12 sits will need to be thicker, stronger, heavier
This is the rear suspension of the Gordini we building, we are building it to have a 900hp/1000kg ratio
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No more so than if you were building the 700 hp monster that was mentioned at the beginning
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How big is your budget? Why not just buy the real thing?
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Excellent information on this thread!
With the wiring harness issues considered, it seems that the 1995-2000 S600 (600SEC/600SEL) / SL600 are all great buys.
I did a quick search for some of these, and Tusabes' forewarning had already solved some questions! I found a 1993 S600 in perfect condition except for "some electrical issues". No need to wonder why ::thumbup
Anyway, how about approaching the topic from a different perspective: An engine that boasts an exotic zonda-like sound whilst producing 300-500hp, ALL without incinerating my wallet sounds great!!
Keeping the engine relatively stock, are there any major concerns?
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Excellent information on this thread!
With the wiring harness issues considered, it seems that the 1995-2000 S600 (600SEC/600SEL) / SL600 are all great buys.
I did a quick search for some of these, and Tusabes' forewarning had already solved some questions! I found a 1993 S600 in perfect condition except for "some electrical issues". No need to wonder why ::thumbup
Anyway, how about approaching the topic from a different perspective: An engine that boasts an exotic zonda-like sound whilst producing 300-500hp, ALL without incinerating my wallet sounds great!!
Keeping the engine relatively stock, are there any major concerns?
The engine itself is bulletproof its just the wiring
You can actually get the earlier cars as many have been updated with a wiring harness that doesn't use biodegradable insulation . If you see one with wiring issues , Mercedes sells updated wiring harnesses but they aren't cheap
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You would be changing the wire harness anyway using an aftermarket engine management so that ain no problem
Oh and for the people that knock the sound of the BMW M70
http://www.ultimav12.ca/videos/mvi_0417.avi (http://www.ultimav12.ca/videos/mvi_0417.avi)
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I have a BMW 850i with aftermarket exhaust, and I can tell you it dont sound nothing like a Lambo v12 or v10. But maybe in a midengine setup with shorter exhaust of some type it might sound better..
I got this aventador exhaust in my hands, so I want to try how much the exhaust effects in the sound.
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I wish we could see a cutaway.
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Cutaway photo
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Cutaway photo
Awesome, I can make one.
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please let us know if your aventador exhaust make the sound close to the real one
waiting for your test :)
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please let us know if your aventador exhaust make the sound close to the real one
waiting for your test :)
Most likely I will test this muffler with turbo Supra engine (500-800hp). I know it will not sound exactly like aventador, and it is not even my purpose.. I just want to test what kind of sound it can produce, and its also a nice package for mid-engine car like I build.
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The earlier m120 is far better. Plus the cars are cheaper .
You really want to avoid the 2000-2002. Besides being more expensive ,
Those later engines up to 2002 have problems with the oil cooler that's in the V of the engine . And the electronics are fully mated to the car so you have to use the engine transmission gear lever and key . Otherwise it will not run.
The older m120 is not so tied into everything and you can use the Cima transmission that Pagani used
Which year Cima transmission fits on this engine?
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I have an OEM Merci muffler that I would like to sell if anyone is interested.
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The earlier m120 is far better. Plus the cars are cheaper .
You really want to avoid the 2000-2002. Besides being more expensive ,
Those later engines up to 2002 have problems with the oil cooler that's in the V of the engine . And the electronics are fully mated to the car so you have to use the engine transmission gear lever and key . Otherwise it will not run.
The older m120 is not so tied into everything and you can use the Cima transmission that Pagani used
Hello Tusabes, Im new in this forum and I need your help, in case that I want to use this engine but not with a manual transmission(Cima), but with a transmission that would like a dual-clutch automatic as it is in the original Aventador, what kind of options do I have?
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Most likely I will test this muffler with turbo Supra engine (500-800hp). I know it will not sound exactly like aventador, and it is not even my purpose.. I just want to test what kind of sound it can produce, and its also a nice package for mid-engine car like I build.
Tantukka,
please let us know how this goes (post a video if you can). I have a 1996 Toyota Supra with twin 2835R turbos and I would love to hear what a 2JZ sounds like with that muffler. I've got straight pipes to circular magnaflow mufflers and its sounds very clean and healthy, a nice rumble that screams a bit as the throttle gets put down (the car also has 272 cams). I know that turbo engines want no backpressure at all, but since these engines make enough power already, I'd be willing to sacrifice a tiny bit of power to get a nice note out of the muffler. I've always wanted to put a sound tuned exhaust from an exotic car behind a 2JZ, never seen(or heard audio) it done before.
Loooong post ahead...I've been wanting to talk engine choice/exhaust stuff for replicas for some time now.....
Lots of good info in this thread, especially about the M120 Mercedes V12. That has been my favorite engine swap idea for a kit car/replica ever since I saw that equal length header video. That thing screams. Its hard to find info on using that engine for a swap, especially to a mid engine application since they are known to be kind of tough to separate from the auto trans they come with. It is doable, but requires an aftermarket ECU and some serious wiring and tuning. These guys are putting one in a Miami GT and are sorting out all the little issues, they'd be the best guys to ask about getting this motor into a mid engine, sequential manual powered car. They are using a Mendeola sequential, awesome but costs a fortune....
https://www.facebook.com/FZ12Supercar/info?tab=page_info (https://www.facebook.com/FZ12Supercar/info?tab=page_info) =Miami GT build with Mercedes Benz M120 V12 and Mendeola sequential manual gearbox.
These 2JZ's Tantukka brought up are known for their big power and performance, but it seems few talk about the exhaust note and even fewer seem to bother trying to 'sound tune' them for optimum acoustics because of the back-pressure issue. The best exhaust for them for performance is no muffler at all, and if there must be one, then it shouldn't be chambered or have any restrictions...... unfortunately that leaves us with pretty much zero options to get a different sound out of them. Engine sound is a big deal to me, and I think it was of the most overlooked aspects of the replica car community. So many times I see a nice build only to hear it start up and have it give itself away in seconds with a sound that is nowhere close to being European, let alone exotic. I've been wanting to discuss engine choices and exhaust sound for some time, so I figure this would be a good thread to mention some engines/exhaust set ups that I like or that could have some serious potential in a nice build.
I've always thought the 2JZ would make a very cool and unique engine choice for a replica car, not that it would ever sound exactly like what the replica looks like, but for those that are content with their replica's sound so long as its a healthy and powerful note, and doesn't resemble the sound of a muscle car or other domestic....I think it would be awesome. They are very strong and capable of big horsepower reliably. The downside is they are long, heavy, and expensive. As mentioned before, I think these engines are capable of making some very nice exhaust notes, its just that no one has done much experimentation because the engine is used in full-on performance applications almost exclusively. Some tinkering around with it may result in the discovery of a very exotic (in its own way, not replicating an already known exotic car) sound that you won't hear any other car producing. Here's what they sound like with an HKS high flowing muffler.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP6cVLG0iQY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP6cVLG0iQY) = VIDEO: Supra with 4" HKS exhaust
Here's one with nice headers but straight pipes with what the owner says is a custom muffler.I suspect this is a muffler similar to what I am talking about; its definitely not a straight-through hi flo design like everyone else uses on these engines.....this is getting very close to what I am theorizing these engines can sound like....
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gJLCikx1JI&t=0m14s#)
(http://honda-tech.com/attachments/welding-fabrication-53/105632d1265765031-2jzgte-dragster-project-img00093-20100207-1506.jpg)
Another engine I like as far as sounds go is the Toyota 3.0 V6 called the 1MZ-FE found in the Toyota Camry, Lexus ES300, RX300, from the 90's. It isn't a big power maker, but with some money put into it, 400-500hp is doable (compound turbo supercharger setup intercooled around $8k I think), there is a shop in Canada that has over 1,000hp in their Camry, truly insane but I doubt it would be cost effective. I have this motor swapped into my 1993 Toyota MR2 because I plan on doing a Ferrari 360 build on that chassis and I wanted the engine to have a European sound to it that was as close to exotic as possible. It's darn near impossible to replicate that flat plane crank 3.6 Ferrari V8, but with the proper exhaust, this thing can get darn close considering it is a 3.0 liter economy car V6 from Toyota. This one is installed in a DNA-kitted MR2 roadster Ferrari 36 replica......
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECpekYGlnO8&t=0m10s#)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECpekYGlnO8 (https://)
Compound charged 1MZ-FE
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-7U7M0_90MsQ/VG-MHhFGCNI/AAAAAAAAA9U/spexiN40oHc/s1600/turp_0304_06_z 1991_toyota_mr2 motor.jpg)
Mazda KL- A very inexpensive 2.5 liter engine from Ford/Mazda. Some guys have slapped turbos on them and boosted them up to ridiculous horsepower numbers. This engine has a very unique sound that I think can be made suitable for an exotic application.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYpucfAxxp0&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYpucfAxxp0&feature=youtu.be) =Mazda 2.5 liter KLZE V6, running 12 seconds in quarter mile in FWD Mazda 323!
Now this is an engine that I have been racking my brain trying to figure out what I am missing.....because for the life of me, I cannot figure out why this thing is not insanely popular in the replica community and the engine swap/tuner community..... the Ferrari F136 engine found in the Maserati coupe and spyder from 2002 onward. Its a 90 degree V8, DOHC, 32 valve, 400hp/400tq. Variations of this engine is what is used in the Alfa Romeo 8C, Maserati Quatroporte, Ferrari California, Ferrari F430, and the 458 Italia. These engines can be purchased all day long on Ebay, I checked it just before posting this and found several, priced as complete, running motors between $3-5k! For 400hp/400tq? That sounds too good to be true...so much so that I am wondering if I am missing something. If anyone knows if there is some massive downside to this engine that I don't know about, please let me know. These things are a little more powerful than many LSx engines and is about the same price, a little cheaper than some of the newer 6.2's (and way cheaper than LSx engines on ebay). These engines bolt up to a very small looking trans that is available in paddle shift as a sequential manual, and they are very cheap too. I don't know anything about them, I want to find out what they are about because they too look like they could fullfill a lot of needs in the replica car community....that is probably one of the most difficult or expensive things to replicate in a build, the sequential manual trans, with people usually running a manually shifted true automatic instead. If this trans is usable, it would allow for inexpensive paddle shifting of a true sequential manual trans. These engines are mounted in the front of the spyder and coupe, but a torque tube extends all the way back to the rear end of the car and connects to this small trans/transaxle, making it a possible option for use as a mid engine transaxle as far as I know. Someone with some info on these, please inform us!
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/MASERATICOUPEV8.JPG/280px-MASERATICOUPEV8.JPG)
The engine sounds and performs amazing, is a Ferrari product, and most shocking of all to me, it is surprisingly affordable. Here's an exahust clip of a 4.2 in a Gransport, I beleive this one has custom made equal length headers which play a huge role in getting the great sound....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9Ey7rFmBrs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9Ey7rFmBrs) = VIDEO: Maserati 4.2 Gransport equal length headers, great sound.
Here's one of the same cars that the motor on ebay was pulled from, with just a muffler...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4J0_eKHVYQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4J0_eKHVYQ) = Ferrari F136 engine, stock in Maserati coupe 4.2 V8, stock with just catback exhaust added.
So if you want to invest some money or time into fabricating some serious exhaust like equal length headers and hook that to an afermarket sound tuned or valvetronic muffler for a ferrari or lamborghini, you can get some very exotic sound for fairly cheap (relatively speaking)
Another good engine choice for a nice sound is Nissan's VQ35DE, a 3.5 Liter with hp from 240-304 and torque from 231-275ft lbs. depending on application, produced from 2001 onward. Its all aluminum, DOCH, variable valve timing, MPFI, it has made Ward's 10 best engines almost every year since it came out. A common vehicle it was found in is the Nissan 350Z as well as the Murano, Maxima, and Altima. Among car guys, this engine seems to have a love it or hate it exhaust note, some saying it burbles like a strange spaceship. I personally don't care for it with OEM headers and just a muffler, but like so many other engines, if you spend some money or have some fabrication skills and can make yourself a set of long tube, equal length headers for this engine, it sounds quite exotic in my opinion........
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnelyYtGK30&t=0m14s#)
Last but not least we have the LSx (LS1, LS2, LS4[transverse from FWD]LS6, LS7, LS9).... I didn't include this engine because I think it is capable of a great exotic sound, I included it because it is just the best darn engine in every single category really, EXCEPT sound. I have owned quite a few LSx powered vehicles and currently have in a miata awaiting wiring, and one going into another MR2 chassis, this one is under construction completely and is just sitting in there without proper mounts even made yet. ..... I've got these two projects with this powerplant choice for one reason....they do everything well....good fuel economy, great power output, broad torque curve, reliable, inexpensive to maintain, lightweight for its power output (light in general really), tons of aftermarket support, relatively simple compared to European and Japanese V8 DOHC engines, etc, etc.
The one issue is I personally just can't stand the way they sound. They are tolerable to me with an exhaust that quiets them down and gives them kind of a constant deep rumble like Borla or Magnaflow. Anything else and they get too raspy for me and can make popping noise under deceleration and get more and more of a muscle car sound to them with an aggressive camshaft. This is not a problem if the engine is going into a muscle car or a domestic drag car or something....but I wouldn't want my Aventador replica rumbling up like a pumped up '69 Camaro. For me personally, I don't even like them much for that application (sound wise), the original SBC motors from GM have a much better sound to them for that muscle car rumble, but that's another story. Basically I just don't like the noise these things makes, and its terrible because they are so great.
I have looked into lots of remedies, and it seems others have too.... I saw some videos recently of authentic lamborghini mufflers being attached to their exhaust systems with very decent results....it covered the sound when the throttle is being applied, but was still that rough American chop at idle. I looked into those smooth idle street cams, but those are just to soften the idle of an already more aggressive than stock cam, it won't be smoother than OEM. The best option that I could come to on these engines is to have some 180 degree headers fabricated. I have only seen one video of these in a street car on an actual LSx motor. The rest are all on SBC, BBC, or Fords. That's really not close enough though, all of three of those engines will sound different than LSx's with 180's.....
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSZTbR6C6Lw&t=0m35s#)
There's no description of what muffler he's using, but I am going to assume it is something you still find standard on vettes like a flowmaster or a Borla. I would like to hear these headers attached to an OEM or aftermarket Lamborghini or Ferrari sound tuned exhaust like this.....
(http://www.fi-exhaust.com/images/products/ferrari/ferrari_458-speciale_exhaust_2.jpg)
There's a couple of off-road buggies with 180's on them, they sound AMAZING at WOT, but still has that muscle rumble chop at idle.
Make sure you only click on the LS based ones, SBC sounds much different to me.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=180 degree headers ls (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=180 degree headers ls) = Multiple VIDEOS of 180 degree headers, not all videos are of LSx engines
The only fix for that I think is Ligenfelter's flat plane crankshaft conversion, which I cannot believe exists. This is somewhat costly, and to be honest I don't know how it can offer any performance advantage over the traditional set up, but it does give you a flat plane crank like Ferrari has....although you will hear it still has a sound that is very much its own....and IMO, not resembling any exotic that I know of.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ligenfelter flat plane crank ls (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ligenfelter flat plane crank ls) = multiple Lingenfelter flat plane crankshaft LSx kit VIDEOS
180 degree headers are supposed to mimic the effect of a flat plane crankshaft, but in this case I think the 180 headers do a better job of giving it the actual sound we are after. As far as I know, no one else does this for the sound, lol, they just care about the performance. I get that, but at the same time I don't get how optimum sound doesn't matter to so many gearheads. Anyway, I think the best hope for the LSx when used in replicas is a good set of 180 degree headers that are as long as possible (will sound better on LSx than short headers) but with a valvetronic, sound tuned style muffler like the Ferrari 458 one I posted.
An engine I almost forgot to add, but is one of the greatest sounding available.... the BMW s85 v10 is a DOHC V10 engine that was produced from 2005-2010. Used in the E60 M5 sedan, E61 M5 touring and E63/64 M6 coupé, it was inspired by BMW's previous Formula 1 involvement.
It is a high-revving engine designed to utilize power from a wide rev band. It has a redline of 8250 rpm, makes over 100 bhp , and has a very high compression ratio of 12.0:1.
Some specs and info:
It produces over 100 hp more than the previous E39 4.9liter V8, whilst weighing only 2.2 pounds more.
Has individual throttle bodies per cylinder.
5.0 Litre V10, 90 degree bank angle, 507 hp (378 kW) @ 7750rpm/520 N·m (384 lb·ft) torque @ 6100rpm
Cast aluminum block with bed plate design split at the crankshaft axis.
Cast aluminum heads with four valves per cylinder and CNC machined ports and combustion chambers. Valves are actuated through non-rotating inverted bucket cam followers.
Oil-cooled, forged aluminum pistons from Mahle Motorsport
Forged steel crankshaft with counterweights, shared crankpins producing an uneven firing interval of 90 or 54 degrees.
Double VANOS system which varies both intake and exhaust cam phasing
10 individual electronically controlled throttle butterflies
Quasi-dry sump lubricating system
The firing order for the S85 engine is 1-6-5-10-2-7-3-8-4-9.
Their cost varies greatly, with examples on ebay asking anywhere from $5,500-11,000; from remanufactured to high mileage used. Going rate for a lower mileage used complete motor is about $7,500. The engine can be costly to maintain and repair, which I think has turned quite a few people off of using them. The sound alone should be enough to tempt more than a few people though. Here is a BMW M6 with the s85, gutted cats, and eisenmann mufflers that look like this....
(https://www.vividracing.com/catalog/images/B5260.02180.jpg)
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCR8hJHUhII&t=0m03s#)
Here's another wildly exotic sounding engine, the 20b 3-rotor wankel motor from the Mazda/Eunos cosmo (Japanese sedan that only came in automatic, but the engine is popularly swapped into RX7's which came with a 13B 2-rotor engine). They can be incredibly expensive to purchase, and there is tremendous debate over whether or not they are durable/reliable with multiple failures reported by individuals, but much success in the motorsports, specifically endurance events. They are even used in some airplanes, so obviously someone has some serious faith in their ability to keep running. I've never built one of these engines myself, I've only driven a car equipped with one a few times and liked how it felt. They rev insanely high, and they sound awesome.....truly a great candidate as far as mimicking sound and high revs of exotics. The note is still its own, but is exotic and interesting enough to be used in a replica in my opinion.
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyK7BgTAuyk&t=3m15s#)
Then we have the wankel motor that made me believe for just a moment that I had found the ultimate replica/kit car motor....the custom 4-rotor, developed from two RX7 13B wankel engines. I thought it was the one, that is until I researched what they cost to build. The only place that is really known for even making them can do one for about $70k by the time it gets back to you......which is obviously insane, but my first impression was that a motor constructed out of two fairly mass produced Japanese engines couldn't be too exotically priced. Rumor has it that someone in New Zealand is building 4 rotors out of two early predecessors to the 13B, making the costs significantly cheaper...I have not been able to verify yet. ...
but listen to that sound.....
https://youtu.be/oKmR0EVYoSo (https://youtu.be/oKmR0EVYoSo) = VIDEO: most amazing sounding Japanese motor - custom 4 rotor wankel based on Mazda 13B's.
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my advice start with your trans first then go to the engine. No good researching engines that there is either no transmission that will fit in a midengine setup, or just nothing thats affordable. I bought a 2jz gte and tried to figure out a way to put it in my Diablo and just couldnt do it with out spending $10k-$15k for a trans strong enough to hold it.
Alot of dual over head cam engine sounds really good with the right exhaust. I saw this sand rail/dune buggy thing that this guy had a Kia Sorento engine in. This thing sound so exotic it was crazy. But in the end you gotta be happy with what you want....
I ended up with a turbo LS4 setup, for me I wanted something fast, dependable, and something that is doable without having to make a bunch of one off parts. Its perfect for me, the thing is wicked fast, and no real problems but most important (to me) if I have a breakage I can go to the local parts store and get anything I need to fix it. But Im the type of guy who dont like long drawn out projects. If I cant build it with in a year, I dont want to build it
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I've driven an Aventador and that v12 is a unique very high pitch symphony! To be honest going by sound the Toyota v6 and BMW v10 seem to get close to the that note. I have a stock 93 LT1 with stock headers and open exhaust, not even close to that v12 but unque. Trick is the transaxle. That Toyota has the transaxle options and you can go nuts with bolt-ons blow it up and get another from the local junk yard tomorrow.
One thing I also wanted was to make sure I had adaquit power. Now I am only 300hp and after having some fun with a buddies tuned 2009 vette we were both supprized buy how well I was able to pull away......I'm lighter and hookup with the weight and big rear tires.
Although that was fun its the only time I used all the power. I really only use the car for driving to shows and cruising. So with that in mind I would now lean towards that v12 sound.
I think I would go with a Toyota v6 or if it was in the budget the Bmw v10 but a transaxle/clutch combo must hold up for either option.
That wedge shape on the highway puts huge force for a long period on a clutch. Especially the Countach.
At the shows I always get questions on the motor. They all want the v12. It would be fun to start the Toyota have them guess say with the v12 engine cover installed and after they guess a v12 lift the cover to reviel the Toyota. Its a let down but most enjoy the cars and I always let them know its a replica so the engine note is just more fun.
Go for the note!