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How To - Tips => Engine & Transmission => Topic started by: CCIE on July 20, 2017, 08:11:55 PM

Title: 3800 SC Not starting
Post by: CCIE on July 20, 2017, 08:11:55 PM
All!!!

So I had this yahoo come over and clean out my throttle body in my NAERC Diablo 60 and since then the engine wont start.
Background.
The Diablo sat in storage for several months, I pulled it out and noticed the accelerator pedal was really tough to move/sticking after oiling it a bit including the throttle (where the cable is connected) I started the car with no issues and ran fine. After doing a bit of digging found the throttle body was fairly bad and covered in gunked
I had the throttle cable replaced and asked that the throttle body be cleaned out but after the jerk cleaned out the throttle body he disparaged and since then the engine wont turn over. There is gas and spark plugs do indeed have spark. If I put starter fluid in the throttle body intake it will fire up for a bit but then die. I suspect its the MAS airflow sensor that the jerk might have destroyed while cleaning the throttle body.
Questions
If the MAS airflow sensor is bad will the engine just not turn over or will I have other symptoms like turning over but running rough or something else? Is there other sensors that I can check that would cause the engine to not turn over? This is a cable driven 3800 SC series 2
What do you all think it could be.
Before I replace the MAS sensor or the whole throttle assembly, I figure I ask the awesome knowledgeable folks on this forum.
Suggestions that I can try beside blindly replacing parts?
What else would cause engine not turning over.
Any advise is greatly appreciated

Thanks
CCIE
PS I even consider bad gas but tried putting few gallons of fresh gas though I did not flush out the old gas which was barely there in the first place (almost empty)

Title: Re: 3800 SC Not Starting
Post by: ★Murci-Me★ on July 20, 2017, 09:13:33 PM
If it fires up with starter fluid its probably ot your throttle body. Being that you have spark (engines runs with starter fluid), and there's gas in the tank, its probably fuel related (Injector wiring, fuel pump relay). Have you verified you have fuel pressure at the fuel rail? Can you verify the fuel pump runs?
Throttle bodies are pretty simple in design, I wouldn't imagine your problem lies with that. If the engine starts with starter fluid but then dies after all the fluid is burned off, I would look at your fuel system before buying any sensors or a new throttle body.
Title: Re: 3800 SC Not Starting
Post by: italianknightrider on July 20, 2017, 10:32:31 PM
 Buy a used MAS airflow sensor / IAC ,first ,to get the engine running again ....if he used Carb cleaner he fried this sensor in the process of cleaning the gunk out of the inlet.

 http://forums.aaca.org/topic/9231-cleaning-a-idle-air-control-iac-valve/ (http://forums.aaca.org/topic/9231-cleaning-a-idle-air-control-iac-valve/)

I hope u get it fixed ..... i,m out of it ....i don,t need approval !!
Title: Re: 3800 SC Not Starting
Post by: ★Murci-Me★ on July 20, 2017, 11:15:10 PM
Umm, carburetor cleaner would not 'fry" a sensor. All sensors are usually encased in epoxy or urethane and are impervious to moisture or solvents. Even if carb cleaner could get inside of the sensor it would evaporate out in a few minutes and be fine, as long as voltage isn't applied to the sensor when its still wet with cleaner. Odds of something like that happening is literally about 1 in a billion. The ONLY thing that would damage/ruin a sensor is a electricity, either a ground fault or a circuit overload (voltage spike or voltage to high, short to ground or reverse polarity), or excessive heat (over 350 degrees). Assuming your mechanic didn't throw your sensor against a wall or replace it with a faulty one, its not your problem.

These forums only work to help people when the information/advice is based on fact and knowledge instead of misinformation based on guessing or "try this try that" type of mechanics.
If the car will NOT start without starter fluid, yet runs momentarily when primed with fluid, The problem in NOT a MAS or other sensor. Bad sensors will likely cause idle or acceleration problems, but since the car will not start AT ALL without starting fluid, it is obviously a fuel problem. 
Check for fuel pressure. If none is present, check your fuel pump relay. If its good, check your fuel pump. Also check your fuel filter, if its clogged at all you might experience low fuel rail pressure, but that would only affect the motor/power on acceleration or higher rpm's. Its VERY rare for a clogged fuel filter to affect the engine starting unless it is extremely clogged.
Either way, you have a fuel problem.
Post your findings.
Title: Re: 3800 SC Not Turning Over
Post by: CCIE on July 21, 2017, 03:37:17 PM
Thank you all for responding!!!!

The Diablo wont turn over.
There is gas in the cylinders (to a point its flooded) and I can hear the fuel pump kick on. Although I will check again.
The Diablo was in storage but it started up right away with no hesitation before I brought it home but its been in my drive way for few weeks (covered) and I had the throttle cable changed, its only after the throttle body was cleaned it wont turn over, I have checked all the connectors and they are all in place.  I am wondering if one was to remove the MAS sensor will the engine turn over or if the MAS sensor was bad will it turn over or show other symptoms?
Please keep your suggestions coming and I will post the results. I am sure this will also help others with 3800 SC engines out there. I know dirty throttle body is an issue with these engine and needs to be cleaned out.
Unfortunately Ohio weather is crazy with all the rain. I will try to post pic later today, that is if it stays clear and I get a chance to work outside today.

Thank You IKR but please keep your thoughts coming Its not about approval its about forum help and I trust your knowledge in replicas!!!!!
Thank You Murci.... I will keep digging
Thank You 01Lambiero.... Will check the fuel pressure reg

You guys are awesome!!!!!!!!
 
Title: Re: 3800 SC Not Turning Over
Post by: Neils88 on July 21, 2017, 07:00:23 PM
The Diablo wont turn over.

As mention below...if the engine "won't turn over" then it's not a fuel problem.  It'd be something like a bad battery, bad starter motor, seized engine, ignition switch problems etc. 

But you clearly stated that it started with starter fluid, that means that IS "turning over".  In that case it is most likely a fuel system problem.
Title: Re: 3800 SC Not Turning Over
Post by: ★Murci-Me★ on July 21, 2017, 07:50:10 PM
I was under the impression the engine did turn over but wouldn't start on its own without the help of starter fluid, as stated in your post.
I guess i'm lost by what you mean when you say "turning over".
Yes, an engine will turn over without any sensors attached or working, even if it doesn't have any gas in the tank or oil in the pan or coolant in the radiator. You can completely remove the engine from the car, strip off the throttle body/carburetor and intake manifold, exhaust manifold, water pump and alternator, fan belts, smog pump, power steering pump and so on, and it will still turn over (as long as its not seized) when you give 12v to the starter and starter solenoid.
Will it run? No, but it will definitely turn over!
As Neils88 said, if the engine wont "turn over" its either a dead battery, bad sarter motor or starter solenoid, or a bad ignition switch.


Oh and BTW if all that checks out to be fine, maybe you just don't have enough air in your tires :)
Title: Re: 3800 SC Not starting
Post by: CCIE on July 22, 2017, 02:45:53 PM
I was under the impression the engine did turn over but wouldn't start on its own without the help of starter fluid, as stated in your post.
I guess i'm lost by what you mean when you say "turning over".
Yes, an engine will turn over without any sensors attached or working, even if it doesn't have any gas in the tank or oil in the pan or coolant in the radiator. You can completely remove the engine from the car, strip off the throttle body/carburetor and intake manifold, exhaust manifold, water pump and alternator, fan belts, smog pump, power steering pump and so on, and it will still turn over (as long as its not seized) when you give 12v to the starter and starter solenoid.
Will it run? No, but it will definitely turn over!
As Neils88 said, if the engine wont "turn over" its either a dead battery, bad sarter motor or starter solenoid, or a bad ignition switch.


Oh and BTW if all that checks out to be fine, maybe you just don't have enough air in your tires :)

Murci....... My apology..... I am just a computer dude and don't have all the car terminology down. Honestly now I am confused about the terms used myself.
Here is what I have going!!!
There is power, Battery is new
Starter is good and runs and "turns the engine over"
There is spark, made sure by testing it
Sounds like the fuel pump kicks in (when I put the key in and half turn I can hear something kicking in besides the air pump) but will check to confirm again
There is fuel in the cylinders, when testing the spark-plug (I removed and found there was plenty of fuel in the cylinders)
I haven't checked the fuel rails to see if there is plenty of fuel pressure but I suspect there is,
The Diablo wont start (fire up?) and run but it will for a few if I put starter fluid in the throttle
I had no issues with the Diablo running even after sitting for months in storage but its after the jackass cleaned out my throttle body it wont start and run on its own.
I am sorry for the confusion!!! I am dealing with a crisis (besides my Diablo not running) we had flooding in our neighborhood and multiple folks had there basement flooded including me and of course the insurance is not covering it as we did not have flood insurance (though we are not in a flood zone) I am paying a premium (Premium as in over 2K per year) for my home owner insurance but I am not covered.... Funny thing is that I am covered in case there was a nuclear attack, or social unrest, and I am sure I might even be covered for "Zombie Apocalypse"  stuff that one wouldn't think could possibly happen but for basic water damage NO COVERAGE!!!!!
Anyway my apology for using the wrong terminology to explain the engine issue
Hope this helps
By the way the pic is from a week ago from my front door and it was a lot worse then the pic shows, the river is actually my front street
And "YES" there is a guy in a red kayak canoeing down my front street!!!!!!


CCIE
Title: Re: 3800 SC Not starting
Post by: Neils88 on July 22, 2017, 03:16:51 PM
I worry when you say there is "lots of fuel in the cylinders"... since there shouldn't be.

I would first check the fuel pressure with an inline gauge. If it's good then get a noid light and check the injectors are firing properly.  If you have "lots of fuel in the cylinders" it wouldn't start with the starter fluid so likely you're not getting enough fuel.
Title: Re: 3800 SC Not starting
Post by: ★Murci-Me★ on July 23, 2017, 12:11:16 AM
I worry when you say there is "lots of fuel in the cylinders"... since there shouldn't be.

I would first check the fuel pressure with an inline gauge. If it's good then get a noid light and check the injectors are firing properly.  If you have "lots of fuel in the cylinders" it wouldn't start with the starter fluid so likely you're not getting enough fuel.

I'm thinking the same thing, there shouldn't be any fuel in the cylinders. When the injectors squirt, they create a fine mist which will evaporate quickly if not ignited.
Remember, gasoline is oil based, Meaning if theres water in your tank, the gas will float on top of the water. The problem is, fuel pumps pick up fuel from the bottom of your tank. If theres water in your tank, the fuel pump is sending water to your injectors which in turn are squirting it into your cylinders, Removing the spark plugs and seeing a wet cylinder is more than likely water, which will not evaporate in the cylinder like gas would. Spraying starter fluid into the throttle body would give you the fuel you need and the cylinders would fire (the engine would run) until the started fluid in the manifold got used up then the engine would die.
So in a nutshell, i'm going to say you have water in your fuel tank.
Drain your tank and fuel system completely, let it air out for an hour or so then put some fresh gas in. It should start right up. If there is water in your tank and you've been trying to start the engine, you probably have water in your oil now as well. That residual water left in your cylinders will drain down between your pistons and cylinder walls and right into your oil pan. water is heavier than oil, so its at the bottom of your pan, right where your oil pump will be drawing oil from. Change your oil as well or you will seize your engine due to the water mixed with oil.
Title: Re: 3800 SC Not starting
Post by: CCIE on July 23, 2017, 03:27:19 PM
Maybe, just maybe, it's time for yahoo #2?
01


????????
Title: Re: 3800 SC Not starting
Post by: ★Murci-Me★ on July 23, 2017, 09:58:40 PM
I ve said it was a fuel problem from the start of this thread. There's apparently nothing else wrong with your engine or you wouldn't be able to get it to run with starter fluid. Being that you CAN get it to run with starter fluid, it is obviously a fuel problem. If the "fuel" that is being pumped from your tank to your injectors wont ignite in your cylinders (even bad fuel will still somewhat ignite), then its definately not fuel being pumped. Water sinks to the bottom of the tank, fuel pumps pick up whatever is at the bottom of the tank.
I bet if you crawl under the car and remove the oil pan drain bolt the first thing to come out will be water.
Title: Re: 3800 SC Not starting
Post by: Neils88 on July 23, 2017, 10:30:55 PM
I bet if you crawl under the car and remove the oil pan drain bolt the first thing to come out will be water.

I'd be surprised if it had that level of water accumulation and even more surprised if water accumulated in the oil pan from him trying to start the engine.  If there is water in the oil, then it's more likely from a damaged head gasket...and clearly there is no indication of this (and it shouldn't cause the car to not start, especially since it does start with starter fluid).  I would agree that it could be bad fuel, or some water contamination. 

The most common failure for a car that has sat (other than bad gas) is the outlet hose from the fuel pump failing after sitting in the aging gasoline.  This leads to a failure that reduces (or eliminates) fuel pressure.

Given that the failure seems to have occurred after a "mechanic" cleaned the throttle body, I'd be more worried about some wiring damage to the injectors.  I'm guessing the injector fuses have been checked....

Title: Re: 3800 SC Not starting
Post by: ★Murci-Me★ on July 23, 2017, 10:43:26 PM
If there was wiring damage to the injectors, they wouldn't be able to spray the fuel (actually water) into the cylinders that he has claimed to see when he removed the spark plugs. If any fuel AT ALL was present in the cylinders, the engine would at least try to start when he turned it over being that there would be residual fuel in each cylinder.
I never said the oil pan would be full with water, just that if he pulled the plug the first thing out would be water (in any amount).
Whatever is being sprayed into the cylinders via the injectors is not burning. He has stated that he does have pressure at the fuel rail, so the fuel pump is evidently working even if its not 100%. Even bad gas will burn somewhat, and the engine will sputter and try to start. It seems to fire up just fine with starter fluid, which would rule out pretty much everything else.
Title: Re: 3800 SC Not starting
Post by: Neils88 on July 23, 2017, 11:03:06 PM
Ok CCIE...the pressure is now on you to find and report the actual problem...prove one of us right, and the other wrong lol...  :LL:
Title: Re: 3800 SC Not starting
Post by: CCIE on July 24, 2017, 12:08:48 AM
Ok CCIE...the pressure is now on you to find and report the actual problem...prove one of us right, and the other wrong lol...  :LL:

Neil... I don't want to prove anyone wrong. I am sooo thankful for the forum members to help point me in the right direction..... THANK YOU EVERY ONE!!!!
Unfortunately I have to go to Dallas for the week for work and will be back and will report after the coming weekend.
More to follow.
By the way I called several local shop and since this is a "custom car" no one wanted to work on it and the few local speed/custom shops near me are all booked up for weeks, so now I have to wait until I return back (according to my wife "work is more important then my silly Diablo thing" ... Dam I hate it when she is correct)

More to follow

CCIE
Title: Re: 3800 SC Not starting
Post by: ★Murci-Me★ on July 24, 2017, 10:42:00 PM
Don't waste your money at a mechanic anyway, this is all troubleshooting you can easily do yourself.
Check for water in your fuel rail by turning your ignition switch "on" so the fuel pump pressurizes up. Go to the schraeder valve/fitting on your fuel rail and bleed off some of what comes out into a cup. You don't need much, maybe a few teaspoons full. Go to an open area in your yard and pour it on the corner of a paper towel, then see if you can get it to burn by lighting it with a match or lighter. If its fuel, even old bad fuel, it will easily catch and burn. If its water though like I suspect, no fire in the world will light it.
My reasoning is simple, whatever is being squirted into the cylinders is not burning even though you have ample spark. This is proven because starting fluid gets the engine to fire up, so the only thing missing in the whole equation and preventing the engine from starting is fuel. You're saying that when you inspect the cylinder by removing the spark plug the cylinder interior looks wet. It shouldn't look like that, it should be bone dry. Gas would evaporate, water wouldn't. Gas would ignite, water wont.
Title: Re: 3800 SC Not starting
Post by: CCIE on July 25, 2017, 02:18:50 PM
Don't waste your money at a mechanic anyway, this is all troubleshooting you can easily do yourself.
Check for water in your fuel rail by turning your ignition switch "on" so the fuel pump pressurizes up. Go to the schraeder valve/fitting on your fuel rail and bleed off some of what comes out into a cup. You don't need much, maybe a few teaspoons full. Go to an open area in your yard and pour it on the corner of a paper towel, then see if you can get it to burn by lighting it with a match or lighter. If its fuel, even old bad fuel, it will easily catch and burn. If its water though like I suspect, no fire in the world will light it.
My reasoning is simple, whatever is being squirted into the cylinders is not burning even though you have ample spark. This is proven because starting fluid gets the engine to fire up, so the only thing missing in the whole equation and preventing the engine from starting is fuel. You're saying that when you inspect the cylinder by removing the spark plug the cylinder interior looks wet. It shouldn't look like that, it should be bone dry. Gas would evaporate, water wouldn't. Gas would ignite, water wont.

Murci!!!..... Thank You!!!! I am almost sure there is water in the tank. I suspect it leaked through the gas inlet on the top/side of the Diablo in Heavy rain. The reason I was taking it to the shop was to get the water removed.
What would be the best way to remove water from the gas tank without dropping the tank?
What would be the best way to remove the water from the engine block beside draining the oil/oil change
Any advice is greatly appreciated!
More to follow this weekend

Thank You
CCIE
Title: Re: 3800 SC Not starting
Post by: CCIE on July 25, 2017, 03:50:54 PM
Looks like this is my potential entry point of water in my tank (Still to confirm)
I hope to get/make an accurate copy of a Diablo 60 gas door and graft it in over the winter.
Now the question is What's the best way to remove water from the tank... Is there any possibility of draining the gas tank without removing it from the Diablo?
I will be doing an OIL CHANGE over the weekend. What else can be done to remove all the water from the engine block and what else can I do to stop any potential damage in the engine block

Thanks
CCIE
Title: Re: 3800 SC Not starting
Post by: Neils88 on July 25, 2017, 05:40:07 PM
The easiest way to empty a tank is to disconnect a fuel line near the engine and run it to a bucket, then put 12V directly to the pump. Since you have a 3800sc I'm guessing this is a Fiero setup (you probably stated that somewhere, but I didn't go back to check).  If so, you can unplug the connector at the firewall and connect some jumpers. You'll have to look up which wire is which...can't remember offhand.  If you had a large quantity of water in the tank then I'd still recommend dropping the tank once it's most drained so that it can be opened and inspected, and any remaining water removed.

If you have proven water contamination, then you should drain the engine and do a normal oil change.  Run the engine for 5 minutes then perform a second oil change.  Some people won't bother with the second oil change, but it's minor cost to flush the system.  You shouldn't require any oil additives.  Ensure you change the filter each time as well.
Title: Re: 3800 SC Not starting
Post by: ★Murci-Me★ on July 25, 2017, 10:38:28 PM
Neils88 is right, the best way to drain the tank is to use the fuel pump in the tank to pump it out. I don't think you will have a problem with residual water in the tank, if there is some just add some fuel stabilizer to a full tank of gas and will burn off through normal engine operation.
Be certain to do the dual oil change as Neils88 stated. It will guarantee all the water is flushed out of your engine. Just use the cheapest oil of the right weight you can find for the first flush, then drain it and use the type of oil you normally use for the final fill.
Title: Re: 3800 SC Not starting
Post by: 01Lambiero on July 28, 2017, 10:55:59 AM
So you're saying that the rain passed through the car cover, passed around the fuel filler door, passed around the gas cap into the gas tank?
Title: Re: 3800 SC Not starting
Post by: ★Murci-Me★ on August 05, 2017, 03:23:36 PM
Any updates on this? Did you get it running?
Title: Re: 3800 SC Not starting
Post by: CCIE on August 06, 2017, 09:16:07 PM
Mu
So you're saying that the rain passed through the car cover, passed around the fuel filler door, passed around the gas cap into the gas tank?

Murci!!!.......

It seems to be more of a fuel issue. There is intermittent fuel pressure loss in the fuel rail. I suspect fuel pressure regulator (Though I still suspect the MAS sensor). I have ordered some steel breaded fuel hoses, Universal adjustable fuel pressure regulator to start. The fuel pump seems to run but I am thinking about replacing that as well with a high performance fuel pump. Unfortunately my real job keeps me busy so next weekend I hope the parts will be delivered and I will install. Will update then.....  Thanks to Eddy I just learned where the computer is in the NAERC Chaise and where the OBD connector might be so I hope to learn more....Thank You all for the help

CCIE
Title: Re: 3800 SC Not Starting
Post by: ★Murci-Me★ on August 09, 2017, 09:20:58 PM
If it fires up with starter fluid its probably ot your throttle body. Being that you have spark (engines runs with starter fluid), and there's gas in the tank, its probably fuel related (Injector wiring, fuel pump relay). Have you verified you have fuel pressure at the fuel rail? Can you verify the fuel pump runs?
Throttle bodies are pretty simple in design, I wouldn't imagine your problem lies with that. If the engine starts with starter fluid but then dies after all the fluid is burned off, I would look at your fuel system before buying any sensors or a new throttle body.



Hmmm.........