LamboClone - The Premier Site for Lamborghini Replica Builders
The Forum => Other Topics => Topic started by: italianknightrider on June 26, 2013, 12:29:16 PM
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http://www.carbuzz.com/news/2013/6/25/Lamborghini-Sues-Fake-Lambo-Builder-7714990/ (http://www.carbuzz.com/news/2013/6/25/Lamborghini-Sues-Fake-Lambo-Builder-7714990/)
http://www.drivespark.com/four-wheelers/2013/lamborghini-sues-fake-lambo-kit-maker-005011.html (http://www.drivespark.com/four-wheelers/2013/lamborghini-sues-fake-lambo-kit-maker-005011.html)
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Honestly... I'm surprised that it took this long.
My guess is that Audi / Lamborghini is trying to send a message out to everyone working on the Aventador's that they are watching and will be going after anyone releasing a body. Why else would Lamborghini care about the the now out of production Murci and why aren't they focused on anyone still making the Diablo and Countach bodies?
I think this is more preemptive on Lamborghini's behalf given the flood of Aventador inspired bodies that are soon to hit the market and are surely what's really worrying them.
Chris
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I think Jackie's biggest mistake was selling his turnkey demo cars on eBay
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Man, I thought that automobili Lamborghini built better cars than Jackie. They were jealous?? Evidently, Lamborghini Inc. never took a close look at Jackie's Merci 4 me. What's next???? NEED FOR SPEED???? They have what they quote as a Lamborghini Diablo in their e-game. By the way, do they have any satelites up there? :'( ::scratch :'( :'( ::scratch ::scratch >:( >:( >:(
Jim
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Video games typically get official licensing from the mfgr
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Lets all hope that lambo dont find this website or MM lol. Im not sure if they would ask to destroy any lambo projectll
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They cant do that.
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Lamborghini knows about all 3 forums but they don't have much to say. I bought $4000 worth of OEM parts from them - and the other 100 replicas on the road today probably did the same on average.
To send them a video of molds destruction proves nothing
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Well it would have stopped the lawsuit
Jackie should have made a video destroying some botched splash job , those idiots at lambo wouldn't have had a clue what was being destroyed
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Lets all hope that lambo dont find this website or MM lol. Im not sure if they would ask to destroy any lambo projectll
It's legal to own a replica in the USA (in some countries its not ), you just can't make them for sale . You can build your own as long as there is no commercial /profit motive
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So, if you build one for yourself you can never sell it? Keep trying, you're getting closer lol!
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Simple, use any article as long as it is created with attention to Related Laws Contained in Title 17 of the Copyright Law of the United States of America - Especially of interest is Chapter 1 § 107 with Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use for training and research purposes; associated with no ‘Commercial Nature', not meant to be used as a whole, and shall have no effect on the potential market for or value of any existing protected similar articles.
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The thing about it is the Mercy 1,2 and 4 are not exact replicas of anything.
Set them next to a real one and they only have vague similarity's IMO.
(especially the 4)
It's like you can go to Jackie and get a real big body kit for your Fiero or Firebird. Just like you can get fast bumpers for your Honda or a wing for your Supra.
Nothing would fit on a real Lambo and Jackie never sells badges or any OEM equipment except for maybe the wheels....
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It's not just badges or exact shape
A "confusingly similar " shape is also violating intellectual property
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Doesn't something only have to be materially different? Like 30%? Maybe these kits don't meet that criteria.
The thing is, nobody could confuse one of these fiberglass kits (the way they are sold anyway) with a real Lamborghini. In addition, there are no damages. There is no chance Lamborghini is losing sales due to CKI selling these kits. I found it interesting Lamborghini is only asking for the molds to be destroyed. There was no mention of a dollar amount of the suit.
Mike
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THE LAST TIME IT WAS 10 MILLION ...... they broke up one set of old molds and they left them alone .........everything else was sent off ....you know where too.
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Sent from triangle G to Cki ??
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So here is a question for you. Should I be worried if I intend to get a g28 body soon, they that won't be available?
Is this something I should jump on right now?
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Yup. If you don't, you might pay alot more further down the road. Lamborghini WILL win this case, that's guaranteed. CKI will have to destroy their molds, that's guaranteed as well. There may still be bodies available elsewhere after all this, its up to you if you wanna take the chance and wait.
Lamborghini made Triangle-G destroy his molds, they didn't know he had 2 sets though and the second set were sold to CKI. They also promised to sue him for $400K for each body they can prove he sold after his molds were destroyed. I imagine CKI will face the same requirements.
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There's always rob to get a g28 from
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Yeah, if you are stupid enough to give him your money, especially for his POS body.
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Don't sugar coat it. Tell us how you really feel! :D
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Man, I thought that automobili Lamborghini built better cars than Jackie. They were jealous?? Evidently, Lamborghini Inc. never took a close look at Jackie's Merci 4 me. What's next???? NEED FOR SPEED???? They have what they quote as a Lamborghini Diablo in their e-game. By the way, do they have any satelites up there? :'( ::scratch :'( :'( ::scratch ::scratch >:( >:( >:(
Jim
It doesn't surprise me if that's why they wanna stop kit's from being made. I sat and started up a real Aventador the same day I went to go see Murcie-Me. I wasn't impressed one bit. The car had worse than GM Quality at a 450k price tag.... My opinion Mike's interior was FAR BETTER. The only aspect the Aventador had the Replica beat was the engine.
You must have fallen and bumped your head. Why would you want to replicate something that you find to be poor quality?
So fiero suspension and brakes are better than the Lamborghini?
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Yeah I don't understand vf1 sometimes
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In all fairness, Lamborghini isn't known to have the best build quality. There are cars that have a far lower price tag that have MUCH better build quality. Lamborghinis are really about exotic design and exhibition. You'd think you would get more for half a million dollars but apparently, they don't have to deliver more to sell them.
Mike's car is one of the nicest replicas built - no doubt about it. I know he took a lot of care in everything he did on it. It would not surprise me if he was able to do as good or even a better job than Lamborghini in some aspects.
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@ skullangel.
Really? what are you smoking today ::duh
I drove my lotus (that's sitting in my garage) for six years now and I took it to the track over 50 times and I can not figure out how you think that a corvette is in the same class when it comes to cornering lol I have out manuvered these EVERYTIME... even by a long shot! I out manuvered all diablos and ferraris and gallardos EVERYTIME - you choose it, my lotus can out mauver it. I drove a gallrdo for three months when I lived in Laguna Beach - it looks nothing like an Aventador which certainly is not a recycled look of anything! In the world of lamb 50% of everything murcielago was borrowed from a a Diablo and so on. I give you this much, the murci has the most plain interir of its generation - besides my lotus which is more plain. So... I don't knwo what you are smoking ;) bring this vehicle you want to out-corner me in and I will meet you half way in Santa Barbara and I will take my pink slip with me and We will video the whole thing to all three forums
And no - this thread is not about how much should a car cost - so let's not go for "its too expensive for the quality it offers"...
#justsayin
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@ skullangel.
Really? what are you smoking today ::duh
So... I don't knwo what you are smoking ;) bring this vehicle you want to out-corner me in and I will meet you half way in Santa Barbara and I will take my pink slip with me and We will video the whole thing to all three forums
He doesn't even have a car to bring to that battle
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You have to take in consideration what Audi has done with Lamborghini as a brand since its take over. It has taken its rawness of a wicked untamed monster to a more refined status symbol that looks good visually and on paper. The newer Lamborghini's arent marketed as "Track" cars, they are marketed as a status symbol for the elite.
If someone just sits in and only starts up a new Lamborghini (no driving) and has no way ever has the possiblity of owning it and then takes a ride in v6 replica and then somehow gets the idea that they might somehow be able to afford a replica someday, they are going to to biased toward the one they atleast have a chance of owning someday.
Now if this same person was of person of wealth and status that could afford a new real Lamborghini they would be bashing the replicas till no end.... If someone has a visually well done replica and put in a drivetrain that match the performance any of the newer Lamborghini's it still wouldnt hold a candle to a new Lamborghini.
Comparing a visually nice looking replica with 150hp to wheels and compairing it to new real Lamborghini is just silly.....
Back on topic- anyone who markets a front engine Lamborghini like the one they are selling on ebay should be sued....
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@ skullangel.
Really? what are you smoking today ::duh
So... I don't knwo what you are smoking ;) bring this vehicle you want to out-corner me in and I will meet you half way in Santa Barbara and I will take my pink slip with me and We will video the whole thing to all three forums
He doesn't even have a car to bring to that battle
Yes he does ! That Camaro with the blue rims.
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Man, I thought that automobili Lamborghini built better cars than Jackie. They were jealous?? Evidently, Lamborghini Inc. never took a close look at Jackie's Merci 4 me. What's next???? NEED FOR SPEED???? They have what they quote as a Lamborghini Diablo in their e-game. By the way, do they have any satelites up there? :'( ::scratch :'( :'( ::scratch ::scratch >:( >:( >:(
Jim
It doesn't surprise me if that's why they wanna stop kit's from being made. I sat and started up a real Aventador the same day I went to go see Murcie-Me. I wasn't impressed one bit. The car had worse than GM Quality at a 450k price tag.... My opinion Mike's interior was FAR BETTER. The only aspect the Aventador had the Replica beat was the engine.
You must have fallen and bumped your head. Why would you want to replicate something that you find to be poor quality?
So fiero suspension and brakes are better than the Lamborghini?
If I have fallen and bumped my head then you must be blind.
I was CLEARLY Refering to the interior... I have negged on the design for being a recycled Revention/Gallardo in the past which is what it is. I wouldn't want an Aventador Replica or Real.
Oh Last time I checked Mike's car didn't reuse the Fiero suspension and brakes system. He had NAERC wide track with Corvette Brakes and I can tell you from experience he could out corner a Corvette, A Lotus. And probably be right up there with a real Diablo which all I have had experience with on a track I may add....
That would be the only Fiero chassis with NAERC suspension I've ever heard of.
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So here is a question for you. Should I be worried if I intend to get a g28 body soon, they that won't be available?
Is this something I should jump on right now?
Yep, Lambo is probably pissed at the aventador replicas and carkitinc is probably the first site that comes up for replica bodies. First to be hit, many more coming. Get your body now, but honestly get the aventador body if you can. You want the latest.
As far as the aventador having a ugly inside. I sort of agree. The interior doesn't wow me like it should. I think the lambo 560 and 760 have the nicest interiors out there, The carbon is a work of art and the alcantara is beautiful.
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Man, I thought that automobili Lamborghini built better cars than Jackie. They were jealous?? Evidently, Lamborghini Inc. never took a close look at Jackie's Merci 4 me. What's next???? NEED FOR SPEED???? They have what they quote as a Lamborghini Diablo in their e-game. By the way, do they have any satelites up there? :'( ::scratch :'( :'( ::scratch ::scratch >:( >:( >:(
Jim
It doesn't surprise me if that's why they wanna stop kit's from being made. I sat and started up a real Aventador the same day I went to go see Murcie-Me. I wasn't impressed one bit. The car had worse than GM Quality at a 450k price tag.... My opinion Mike's interior was FAR BETTER. The only aspect the Aventador had the Replica beat was the engine.
You must have fallen and bumped your head. Why would you want to replicate something that you find to be poor quality?
So fiero suspension and brakes are better than the Lamborghini?
If I have fallen and bumped my head then you must be blind.
I was CLEARLY Refering to the interior... I have negged on the design for being a recycled Revention/Gallardo in the past which is what it is. I wouldn't want an Aventador Replica or Real.
Oh Last time I checked Mike's car didn't reuse the Fiero suspension and brakes system. He had NAERC wide track with Corvette Brakes and I can tell you from experience he could out corner a Corvette, A Lotus. And probably be right up there with a real Diablo which all I have had experience with on a track I may add....
The only aspect the Aventador had the Replica beat was the engine.
^ ::wave ^ Your words above lead me to believe you compared every "aspect" of the cars to one another.
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Man, I thought that automobili Lamborghini built better cars than Jackie. They were jealous?? Evidently, Lamborghini Inc. never took a close look at Jackie's Merci 4 me. What's next???? NEED FOR SPEED???? They have what they quote as a Lamborghini Diablo in their e-game. By the way, do they have any satelites up there? :'( ::scratch :'( :'( ::scratch ::scratch >:( >:( >:(
Jim
It doesn't surprise me if that's why they wanna stop kit's from being made. I sat and started up a real Aventador the same day I went to go see Murcie-Me. I wasn't impressed one bit. The car had worse than GM Quality at a 450k price tag.... My opinion Mike's interior was FAR BETTER. The only aspect the Aventador had the Replica beat was the engine.
You must have fallen and bumped your head. Why would you want to replicate something that you find to be poor quality?
So fiero suspension and brakes are better than the Lamborghini?
If I have fallen and bumped my head then you must be blind.
I was CLEARLY Refering to the interior... I have negged on the design for being a recycled Revention/Gallardo in the past which is what it is. I wouldn't want an Aventador Replica or Real.
Oh Last time I checked Mike's car didn't reuse the Fiero suspension and brakes system. He had NAERC wide track with Corvette Brakes and I can tell you from experience he could out corner a Corvette, A Lotus. And probably be right up there with a real Diablo which all I have had experience with on a track I may add....
That would be the only Fiero chassis with NAERC suspension I've ever heard of.
Heres a few pics of the front (NAERC wide track) suspension on my car, i'll look for some of the rear also.
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Gallardo and Aventador bodies. Very similar.
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Aventador and Gallardo mirrors. Exact match.
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Aventador and Gallardo center consoles. Very similar design, same switches and arrangement.
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VF1 may not have a replica, but I don't know what that has to do with his comment about the Aventador being very similar to the Gallardo. The fact is, he's right. The Aventador shares the same design elements of the Gallardo, and are often mistaken for each other.
I'm not knocking the Aventador, but the similarities to the Gallardo are undeniable.
The Murcielago was its own design along with the Countach, Diablo, and Gallardo. None of these cars could be mistaken for the other. The Reventon was just an angular Murcielago.
Many people don't like the Aventador because it is a recycled design of the Gallardo, and not its own. There are to many similarities between the two for a lot of people, and I would have to agree.
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The gallardo replacement is going to look a whole lot like the aventador
Take a look
http://www.lambocars.com/images/lambonews/0/new_gallardo_lp600_2.html (http://www.lambocars.com/images/lambonews/0/new_gallardo_lp600_2.html)
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Man, I thought that automobili Lamborghini built better cars than Jackie. They were jealous?? Evidently, Lamborghini Inc. never took a close look at Jackie's Merci 4 me. What's next???? NEED FOR SPEED???? They have what they quote as a Lamborghini Diablo in their e-game. By the way, do they have any satelites up there? :'( ::scratch :'( :'( ::scratch ::scratch >:( >:( >:(
Jim
It doesn't surprise me if that's why they wanna stop kit's from being made. I sat and started up a real Aventador the same day I went to go see Murcie-Me. I wasn't impressed one bit. The car had worse than GM Quality at a 450k price tag.... My opinion Mike's interior was FAR BETTER. The only aspect the Aventador had the Replica beat was the engine.
You must have fallen and bumped your head. Why would you want to replicate something that you find to be poor quality?
So fiero suspension and brakes are better than the Lamborghini?
If I have fallen and bumped my head then you must be blind.
I was CLEARLY Refering to the interior... I have negged on the design for being a recycled Revention/Gallardo in the past which is what it is. I wouldn't want an Aventador Replica or Real.
Oh Last time I checked Mike's car didn't reuse the Fiero suspension and brakes system. He had NAERC wide track with Corvette Brakes and I can tell you from experience he could out corner a Corvette, A Lotus. And probably be right up there with a real Diablo which all I have had experience with on a track I may add....
That would be the only Fiero chassis with NAERC suspension I've ever heard of.
Heres a few pics of the front (NAERC wide track) suspension on my car, i'll look for some of the rear also.
Do you have the NAERC chassis too? I thought that you had a Fiero chassis.
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No, I don't have their tube chassis, I do have the Fiero chassis with the NAERC wide track suspension and big brake kit. It was the first thing I bought when I decided to do a build. Back then they were selling the kit (wide track and big brake) for $4500, plus another $700 for the quick lift option which was crap. If you look in the pics you can see the black airbag, which were fed by a storage tank and small compressor. The problem with the quicklift was that the compressor supplied was so loud and took so long to fill the tank, it seemed like it never stopped running lol! And, the compressor couldn't supply enough pressure to fully inflate the bags, which only gave about a 1 inch lift.
I later (2 years ago) changed it all out with the AUDI front lift system, which gives me a full 2 inch lift.
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Good post Tusabes! If people cant see the similarities between these two cars they're either blind or in denial LOL! I'm not knocking either car, just pointing out the cars are so close in design that they are easily confused with each other, and what VF1skullangle said was correct.
I love the Aventador, but it looks to much like a Gallardo for me to be crazy about it. I bet a lot of Aventador owners get really p*ssed when their $400K Aventador gets mistaken for a $100K Gallardo!
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On a good note though, I got my car washed last weekend!!!
I wanna accessorize my roadster just like yours!
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Every car looks better with a pretty hood ornament ;)
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This thread just got a lot more interesting.
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This thread just got a lot more interesting.
DITTO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ::beers
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::thumbup
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Jackie doesn't seem to be worried. He is still putting out Videos
CarKitInc- Shipping the Mercy-2 Hard Top H.T. (Parts list) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IzO4gk_XCI#)
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lol "...headlight eye brow, some people would just call it the pointy piece" 3:02
and yet he's too smart for lamborghini
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lol "...headlight eye brow, some people would just call it the pointy piece" 3:02
and yet he's too smart for lamborghini
Lol. good stuff.
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oh yea his videos are classic, me and the guys at my job watch his videos in humor
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I like the bit about not needing latches on your hood and engine lid as long as the hinges are on the right side!?!? Yeah, just let the wind keep them down. Seriously? Wow. ::duh
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ya he's not worried about the lawsuit. His intentions is to prolong the lawsuit as much as possible and keep it in litigation for years. I received an email from them stating that the lawsuit would take years to be ruled, and if they do loose they will just refile the lawsuit to overturn the ruling, or something like that.
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I was just on the CarKit sit and found that many of the lambo replicas have been removed. Does anyone have updated info on what CarKits plans are?
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Yep, the V-7 is the only Lambo body left on the site. The funny thing about that is you'd think that is the one Lamborghini would be most concerned with since it resembles the Aventador (their crown jewel). Body sources are definitely drying up these days. :(
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I think cki doesn't need to advertise their murci-2 anymore because everyone knows they have it; anyone looking for such a kit will find them easily and call them and they will say yep come and get one.
On the other hand I think if cki does not assemble the v-7 kit into anything (like they did in the youtube videos to show how to make a murci-2) then they are legally in the safe. It is just panels and that is all.
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I hope you are right am33r. I'm not sure how it works.
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I know Pines.. it sucks because the 'Hobby' and the 'Industry' are not converging - and by all means they shouldn't, they probably are diverging exponentially.
It's somewhat impossible to replicate the newest Ferraris / Lamborghinis, and the bodies are not the hardest thing to replicate anymore. Our LP class of cars will be the last of the meaningful replicas that resemble the original in and out as we have newer cars and no newer donors.
Remember when the Countach and the Replica were from the same generation of cars? they were almost identical. It now costs $80K to make a replica that performs like garbage just to make it look like a fake ave. Well, one should just buy a real Gallardo for $80K
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Well said Am33r
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I have sent CarKit two emails requesting additional information. At this time, they have not responded.
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They don't want to put anything in writing
You might be a lawyer for Lamborghini for all they know
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So should I call them or pay them a visit?
They don't want to put anything in writing
You might be a lawyer for Lamborghini for all they know
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I have yet to have a chance to read this post but I noticed most the kits removed from the website, I'm stuck because I wanted to buy the murci 2 kit from them in February I had my car stretched and was pretty much ready to go other than the funds.. I will read more of this post as soon as I go on break at work but I'm starting to think I'm done I guess. ... praying I can still some how get this kit, and I'd so for the same reasonable price.
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@hawkdriver I may be able to help, what kind of body are you interested in? Do you already have a donor already? What kind of suspension and drive train are you planning to use? I have a G28 And Diablo body for sale, very nice condition for $5k if your interested, sorry don't mean to hi-jack this thread
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Greetings FatBoySlim,
My Son is fully enthralled with the Rave2. We are going to use a Porsche Boxter for the chassis. I know that the Rave kit is not intended to fit on the Porsche however, I am an aircraft pilot/mechanic with enough skill to be able to make this work better than I think I can with the MR2. I am going to go to GA and have a private chat with the folks at CarKit and see what if anything can be worked out.
@hawkdriver I may be able to help, what kind of body are you interested in? Do you already have a donor already? What kind of suspension and drive train are you planning to use? I have a G28 And Diablo body for sale, very nice condition for $5k if your interested, sorry don't mean to hi-jack this thread
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Georgia?
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Yes,
Georgia?
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They're in Alabama unless they moved? :S
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Don't know if it's the same in your country, but in Australia the law is there is no copyright on a body once is 10 years old, this is so other manufacturers like China, They can reproduce identical body panels for cars that manufactures are no longer Producing. Also as long as it is stated that it is a replica and is at least 25% different than the original vehicle being replicated there is nothing They can do about it, this 25% difference could even include the engine that you've used in the replica, also people in the business of selling replicants cannot use any badges or scripts from the Manufacturer on the vehicles when advertising them for sale is this thing becomes a copyright issue. It's probably a good idea if you're selling your replica not to photograph and advertise the car with badges.
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Good info Matty
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Tallon,
You are correct. They are about 45 minutes south east of Huntsville. Sorry to all. I was multi-tasking and thinking about work when I typed.
They're in Alabama unless they moved? :S
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Matty, here in the states, my patent and trademark lawyer who I have paid a great deal of money to, tells me that things are very different. There is no 25% rule. The example he used was a Coke bottle. It does not matter if it is 24%, 25%, or 26%. If it is recognizable as a Coke bottle, it is trade mark protected. Also, 10 years has nothing to do with the Lanham Act, the definitive U.S. patent and trademark laws, or the patent and/or trademark protection limits, just ask Carroll Shelby's people after their Supreme Court decision.
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What would happen if you changed 25% of a small label on a bottle though..
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Thank 76mx. Looks like we all need to be looking for property in Oz.
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I guess that means all of us building replica lamborghini cars, bodies, parts etc. are breaking the law regardless if it is for personal use or for sale, well.. i can think of worse ways to break the law.. incase anyone from lamborghini asks, my name is roy jones jr. ok :LL:
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No, absolutely not. You can do anything you want for personal use, it is only when it is for profit that it becomes an infringement. I have had several face to face meetings with Jackie, even tried to buy Carkitinc. That same attorney told me that I have had a lot of crazy ideas, but this one was the worst.
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-_-
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What would happen if you changed 25% of a small label on a bottle though..
I do not know but for $350 per hour we can find out.
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Talked to Carkitinc today, they stop selling all mercy, and diablo kits!
Lamborghini won.
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I called them the first day, and the lady was blunt, lol nope sorry we don't do that anymore. Literally before I could finish asking lol.
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My build should be worth much more now (although i didn't buy the murci kit from them)
Why is Jackie not on this forum?
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Talked to Carkitinc today, they stop selling all mercy, and diablo kits!
Lamborghini won.
I called them the first day, and the lady was blunt, lol nope sorry we don't do that anymore. Literally before I could finish asking lol.
My build should be worth much more now (although i didn't buy the murci kit from them)
Why is Jackie not on this forum?
he has 7-10 other businesses to run ..... having a Web Site in this business is "Death by Advertisement"
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Well, that is too bad. One less source for Murcielago bodies. This is getting pretty sad.
Hopefully this will at least help Chris sell his car.
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It has been some weeks since I have talked to Jackie, but they were just now going to the first hearing, something that there will typically be many more of before anything is resolved. Lamborghini has won already?
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It looks like they are done for good. The site below outlines the court ruling. $175,000 plus court cost and attorney fees. :'(
IMO Jackie did right by everyone by not complying with the discovery process. Had he done what the court asked every kit that is out there would have been seized and destroyed, also leading to potential suits aimed at the owners of the kits. Also, in the report it indicates that due to failure to comply they have waived their right to appeal, so it would appear the case is closed as well.
http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/alabama/alndce/5:2013cv01136/148250/64/0.pdf (http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/alabama/alndce/5:2013cv01136/148250/64/0.pdf)
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Amazing that a company can be so greedy. :(
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It's true "no car should cost a million dollars" unless the thing Flys and don't use gasoline lol. Hopefully we can have good business through this website and we all can find a mold using our connections through each other and keep our hobby alive. Than again it seems most people didn't perches from carkitinc anyway I guess.
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Interesting. Of particular interest:
"It seems unlikely that plaintiff has suffered an actual loss of income due to the infringement.
A person in the market to buy a fiberglass auto body does not seem to be the type of person who
might have bought a real Lamborghini but did not due to the availability of counterfeit auto bodies."
Despite this, Lamborghini asked for $10M in statutory damages. Ridiculous!
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anyone wanna do a group contract? 5-10 people contract a fabricator to produce a body. that way liability isnt on the producer.
maybe this one,
(https://85be1165d9c50ffdaac3-309d9958387d6e46122cf91b22e7c052.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.com/0000005454-Lamborghini-Sesto-Elemento-LA13.jpg)
or this one
(https://164d2908d7954e4daba9-73f938daa61a42c97e0aa49186da0e54.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.com/0000041791-Lamborghini-Gallardo-Squadra-Corse-2014-LA10.jpg)
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Interesting idea. Where would the liability rest?
What is that first one? Is it a Huracan concept car? I don't quite recognize it.
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How is it that extreme in the uk is able to still operate?
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Hypothetically, what if a company sold replacement parts? Never a whole car, just replacement panels? I assume it would still be an issue.
What if the L word was never used in advertisement and no trademarks were ever used? I assume that would limit the liability but there may still be a problem.
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I feel bad for Jackie. 10 mil?He always was quick to answer questions and at least he was an honest guy that delivered product for the price agreed upon. Why couldn't lambo go after the real bad guys?
How does a guy like Jackie recover from that? Go bankrupt? I seriously doubt he's got that kind of money laying around.
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What is that first one? Is it a Huracan concept car? I don't quite recognize it.
Lamborghini Sesto Elemento
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRT1hw_-0a8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRT1hw_-0a8)
Chris
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Thanks. Cool video. Yeah, I knew of the Sesto Elemento but that didn't look like it to me. I think it being all gray like that threw me off.
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ok thats it...i gotta have that car :drool. Is it just me or does that car look a little like a gallardo? can you modify a gallardo to look like that?
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Hey, I thought you were in the car selling mode not the car buying mode! ;)
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maybe in a few years, im just dreaming...its like being on a diet but i like to still look at the menu :)
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I hear ya bro. I'm still dreamin' myself.
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Jacki this is a toast for your wonderful contribution whatever you're doing today ::beers cheers man
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He will just file bankruptcy and start as a new company just like fugazzi did
Lambo won't get any $$$ out of him
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im not proud to say this but i have been sued before and i learned it is very important to become incorporated as a business whether large or small. I hope jackie was incorporated, this way his personal assets are protected and the judgement is only as good as the paper its written on. They cannot even touch your personal credit or anything. not to mention huge tax benefits. i hope thats what Jackie did. jackie seems like a good businessman so im sure he has a plan "b" . He will hopefully start over again under a different name. Its a strange feeling that the very company we idolize hates our existance :-[
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I do not know any of this for a fact, but I offer a very logical explanation. Part of the Petition wanted a recall of all units sold. If Jackie would have complied with the Discovery and given his customer list, rough math says 200 cars at $50,000 each. That comes to ten million dollars in a potential Class Action Suit by his customers. The $175,000 might be the better way out, and no legal fees. You are right about the corporate protection, to an extent, so why does the number really matter? Here is what it comes down to. Jackie can have Lambo mad at him or he can have the whole kitcar world mad at him. Now a question, who is Ned Branthover, the guy with the declarations mentioned in the Petition?
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I don't see how I would have made it on this list in any way, wouldn't think many people are
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I don't see how I would have made it on this list in any way, wouldn't think many people are
Good to know but it is still an interesting legal tactic. When they pursue the seller, it is like a giant whack-a-mole game, one is shut down but two more pop up and the market continues. By pursuing the buyer, it is a different story. If the buyer is concerned enough about a several year and several tens of thousands of dollars investment being seized by a court order, and is reluctant to purchase a copied body, then the market may dry up.
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in the USA they can't seize an individual owners car that they bought from a kit seller. In other countries they can .
It is perfectly legal for builders to make their own replica for personal use.
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So are Extreme next on Lamborghini`s list from what is being said-
No company can offer a ( KIT ) to build a replica if for profit purposes, or they can be sued.
A company can offer replacement panels for profit purposes
A individual can no be sued for building a replica car for his own purpose.
So if a person/persons got together and started two separate business, one was called FGPP Fibre Glass Panel Parts. and they sold the body in panel form, and the second person started a business called MKCP Metal Kit Car Parts. and they sold kitcar parts, they both are separate entities
and business but when the two products are combined you could produce a replica car.... that sould solve the problem.
the two business could even be run from the same location as long as the end product was never pictured with the advertisement of either business, but this could be a bit risky.
Also I find it hard to believe there is no percentage of copyright. Its only an opinion of a individual if something resembles someone else's product.
Example~ if I build a Murcie then I use reventon
Head lights does it still resemble a murcie or a reventon ???
Example~ if I build a murcie and the doors open like a regular car, then I badge it as a Toyota ( MR2 used as donor )
Or what if these 2 are combined ??? how much has to be changed to not resemble??? it comes down to the each Individual person
I cant think of its name but there is a car built on a 300ZX Nissan and the company offers a kit, in my opinion this car looks like a lambo ???
there are a lot of other companies copying other companies designs and with a few changes its ok for them to continue business, so I believe there must be a percentage of difference otherwise I can stick lambo badges and scissor doors on a Celica, offer the lot for regular sale, it looks nothing like a lambo but and a old lady says look its a Lamborghini~I can be sued.
One other point why have Lamborghini let business get away with it for so long???? are they now just realising that the public can now get our cars looking more like theirs than ever before???
A Lawyer once said to me ( there is always a loop hole, you just have to find it... no one is going to tell you its there, its up to you to know what it is before you find yourself in court. And make sure you only go right to the edge of breaking the law, but not break it ! )
does anyone know the laws in the UK?? they have been building replicas for years ( DNA ~ EXTREME ) must know something?
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Not sure what you are trying to say..
He's getting sued for profiting off of replica bodies
Has nothing to do with what WE do with it after
and a celica doesn't resemble a lamborghini at all, someones "opinion" of it looking like one doesn't change the fact that it's 100% physically different..
As for extreme I don't know. Maybe they get away with selling it in panels, we prefer our G28's in one piece. I'm sure more triG bodies have been sold compared to extreme's as well.
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Let me try to explain it another way. A guy gets busted for selling a fake Rolex. Even though the guy he sold it to is just wearing it for personal use, not trying to profit, he still does not get to keep it, it has been judged in violation of the Lanham Act and they have the right to have it destroyed. At this point it does not matter the percentage of accuracy, it has already been determined by the trial that it is a fake, period. Please do not shoot the messenger, I am not on either side here. To quote Will Rogers "I just call em like I see em". You can debate the grey areas and loopholes but this much is black and white. If Jackie would have given up that customer list and then lost this suit, there could be a lot of unhappy campers right now. As far as Extreme, you would have to ask Lambo's lawyers that question, but here is a thought. If I am that lawyer, I only get paid when I find a good target.
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Thanks Charley.
Since you seem to know a lot about these legal issues, it a problem for a company to sell replacement panels? I suspect so.
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Like I said, what "customers list"?
I paid cash and wasn't asked to sign anything, he temporarily knew me by my first name.
Well I guess if he's required to come up with some imaginary list he's in trouble, but not sure on the unhappy customers bit.
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Exactly Tallon. Same here. He didn't have a clue who I was even though I scheduled to pick the kit up and also paid a deposit prior to the final cash payment. He isn't stupid and very well aware of the legal issues involved with selling these body kits. I highly doubt he kept records of who bought what... Plus lambo would have to peal that body kit out of my cold dead hands if they did try to take it!
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Just for clarity and hopefully to put an end to this, here is one of about 1000 quotes I read on the subject of counterfeiting and the purchasing of counterfeit/replica items. In no way can Lamborghini come after an individual person for obtaining a replica. Frowned upon yes but not illegal. There is no way this many people can be wrong on the subject, it is solely on the person producing the replica. If he had just advertised them as nothing more than a shell, he more than likely would have been untouchable by Lamborghini.
The Fine Line of Legality
It’s an urban legend that buying fake handbags or knockoff sunglasses – or any other type of counterfeit goods, for that matter – is against the law. Let’s put a stop to that rumor right now: it’s not illegal. The misinformation gained traction in spring of 2011, when a New York City councilwoman proposed making buying fake handbags a misdemeanor, punishable by a $1,000 fine and possibly jail time. The measure, however, failed to pass. You can still get your Guchi and Prado bags along NYC’s Canal Street without fear of legal reprisals.
However, that doesn’t mean the law fails to hold the other side of the exchange responsible for selling those counterfeit goods, although there are plenty of shades of gray here too. Say you try to sell a pair of fake Air Jordan shoes, pawning them off as the real deal – that’s against the law. Why? Because it’s trademark infringement. But if you just sell a pair of tennis shoes that look like Air Jordans, but don’t use any of the logos (like the Nike “swoosh” or the silhouette of Jordan soaring through the air for a dunk) – and, most importantly, don’t claim they’re the real deal – you’re likely in the clear.
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Well i am pretty sure there are more than one mold and these bodies will resurface underground with no website advertisement this time.
Its almost like drugs, i dont think you can stop the replica bodies from popping up and us building them.Someone will always have a copy and then pass it on to the next person.
Anthony
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Some times us guys in OZ get taken the wrong way : / I not firing up at anyone and understand your just a messenger, I am just really determend to find the truth on what is ok and what is not. I am not saying that no one is right or wrong on here with what they know, the trouble is everyone ends up not knowing what to believe, and then there is the different laws for other parts of the world.
Thanks for your info Purple LP670 everything your saying makes perfect sense, and I can see how the law views it in that way, I was searching for the laws more on the manufacterer/kit seller, I think the best thing would be for myself to see a lawyer.
Keep building ; )
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Didnt Jackie buy the triangle G molds because triangle G was in trouble with Lamborghini ?
As said earlier , he will just sell the molds to someone else and someone else will start making bodies
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I'd like to see a new legal thread once we can establish what the law really is. We'd have to break it down by country I guess. 76mx mentioned The Lanham Act. I'll look it up to see if there are any nuggets in there.
Now I am only speaking of the U.S. here...It is funny to me that we spend so much time and resources going after trademark and copyright infringement here. It seems like more effort and resources are thrown at that than anything. More than fighting any other crime (including terrorism). I guess it's safer to go after this kind of stuff than it is violent crime. Has anyone else noticed the Homeland Security seal showing up on video game and movie copyright notices? What the heck does this issue have to do with Homeland Security? It seems just another power being abused to me.
In this country, it is illegal to defeat a copy protection mechanism such as what is found on Blu-ray discs even if the purpose of that is to use the movie you own on another device. This stuff has gone too far. It is no longer equitable.
I actually see both sides of this coin. I am a software engineer. I wouldn't want to see someone copy my code bit for bit and then sell it as their own (or give it away for free) but if they want to go through the work of making a program from the ground up similar to the one I wrote, even if they used my program for inspiration, I don't think there is anything wrong with that.
It seems like there should be a reasonable compromise in this area but it doesn't look like there is. It seems like whomever has the deepest pockets gets what they want. In this case, we are definitely outgunned.
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Here is an Idea! Jackie might even go for it. The law suit stipulated that he cannot sell a molded body. How about if he rents the usage of the mold? In this case, He has manufactured nothing. Labo can do nothing about someone building something for their own personal usage, no matter how much it resembles their product. I am looking into what it would take to make my own set of molds. Just a thought.
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That is an interesting idea for someone other than Jackie. He can't legally have anything to do with these molds based on that court order.
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Does anyone know what Jackie is going to do with the molds that he has?
That is an interesting idea for someone other than Jackie. He can't legally have anything to do with these molds based on that court order.
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He may not have them anymore. He isn't going to admit if he does. If you are serious, it may be worth paying him a visit in person.
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Since I am a pilot for one of the remaining U.S. Airlines, I have been looking for an open trip to Huntsville with enough time to do exactly that. It was my hope that someone on here might know him enough to be able to facilitate and opening.
He may not have them anymore. He isn't going to admit if he does. If you are serious, it may be worth paying him a visit in person.
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Unfortunately, I don't know him at all so I can't help with that. I wish you the best of luck. I would be very curious if you are successful. ::thumbup
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legalities aside I'm just wondering why people aren't buying the body's & incomplete builds that members and others have for sale? Is there that many new builders that are wanting new bodies we need to go to the extreme of trying to find molds and take on making them ourselves? I'm sure Ill get some heat for saying that but its a question I've been asking myself since this thread took off! 3 out of every 100 get complete so that leaves about 97 bodies out there to purchase! I know for a fact there are 2 active members on here that are actively looking to sell there build/bodies right now. Bodies not being available only makes the prices of our cars that much higher. Just food for thought.... Jarhead out 888o
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It all depends on what you want. For the G28, I totally agree. However, there aren't as many options for the OEM spec crowd (which I happen to be in - for now). Either way, having done some fiberglass work myself, I would *MUCH* rather buy a manufactured body than try to make my own and pull it from the mold. That is a heck of a lot of work which I would only do if absolutely necessary. Don't get me wrong, I would and will do it if necessary but I would rather avoid it.
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I am beginning to start thinking along the lines of getting access to a mold and then doing the lay up in carbon fiber, then Vacuum Bagging it to cure. Ambitious but very possible.
It all depends on what you want. For the G28, I totally agree. However, there aren't as many options for the OEM spec crowd (which I happen to be in - for now). Either way, having done some fiberglass work myself, I would *MUCH* rather buy a manufactured body than try to make my own and pull it from the mold. That is a heck of a lot of work which I would only do if absolutely necessary. Don't get me wrong, I would and will do it if necessary but I would rather avoid it.
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Now that I respect! :) Yes, it is doable. Doing the body all as one piece as the G28 is, would make it more difficult for sure but this isn't the dress kind of carbon fiber we are talking about anyway. If this gets done I want to hear about it.
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If I ultimately end up going that way, Rest assured, Everything will be posted here.
Now that I respect! :) Yes, it is doable. Doing the body all as one piece as the G28 is, would make it more difficult for sure but this isn't the dress kind of carbon fiber we are talking about anyway. If this gets done I want to hear about it.
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You know, if you are going to go carbon fiber, the G28 molds are probably not the best for you. From what I understand, these panels require quite a bit of work to get right (especially the doors) and I would think fiberglass would be much easier to work with in this regard. If you want to go carbon fiber, you probably want to go OEM spec and those molds are rare.
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The next body should not come from a g28 mold, it should come from forza car
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That can definitely be done too but despite rumors to the contrary, those models aren't all that accurate and require a lot of work if you want them to look right and work with off-the-shelf glass (OEM or otherwise). Lots of work to go this route - refine the model, cut the foam, finish the plug, mold the plug and then pull the panels. Definitely an option though since we sort of seem to be starting from scratch anyway.
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You know, if you are going to go carbon fiber, the G28 molds are probably not the best for you. From what I understand, these panels require quite a bit of work to get right (especially the doors) and I would think fiberglass would be much easier to work with in this regard. If you want to go carbon fiber, you probably want to go OEM spec and those molds are rare.
This is a VERY true statement. Don't waste the Carbon Fiber on a incorrect G28 body.
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Pines ::wave
Accuracy is not a matter of Confirmation; it's a matter of Degree.
Bring me any replica and you and I can detail how inaccurate it is, I mean where does the detail analysis end and where do you draw the line? Let me just state that not one G28 body has the exact wheelbase of the original car or that of the stretched donor it sits on.
I bought and properly mounted all 16 OEM grills and the OEM tail lights and a few other external parts from Lamborghini, but does that make my car an accurate replica? no
The murci-2 at the heart of the issue here can not and will not produce an accurate replica. It requires a sever amount of work only to produce some variation.
How many people bought one from Jacki and finished an accurate car? or a sensible road worthy car? how many hours does that body require to finish? was that mold itself a cause for the bumper problems? the way the tail lights never fit without further cutting? wider door lines? wider fender surfaces? etc. etc.
If anyone wants those bodies then yes people should buy what's already out there. Enough producing the same stuff - we all here see and ridicule the ebay posts... That mold is a big part of the problem.
Also, it is so easy to splash all parts on a kit and use that to make a mold, I don't see how that is difficult it's just fiberglass work. I splashed the two front corners of my bumper and fender in case I get in an accident and I need to remake that part one day, I did all that in mere hours. How difficult can it be really!
But again, I would have bought a body that resembles a muci even if it's not the same length or width as long as the spirit of Lamborghini is still in the body (something for instance murci-4 lacks).
Not everyone is after the same thing - or maybe it's just me! But I certainly don't want an accurate car if it means I can't use HID lights, and LED lights, and the rims I like, or coil overs, or the mirrors I like, or the fuel door cap that I like! Is it my opinion or are these improvements over the original real lp640.
So again, who has an accurate car ::LAMBO
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I understand am33r. This isn't simply a question of "accuracy". it is a question of how much work you have to do to get to a usable end-product. I know there are OEM guys and guys that don't care so let's forget the accuracy issue for a moment. How much work would it take to make a video game model work with any readily available glass? That was my real point. Can it be done? Sure it can.
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let's forget the accuracy issue for a moment. How much work would it take to make a video game model work with any readily available glass? That was my real point. Can it be done? Sure it can.
I see :) I'm no expert but two years ago I modded my own ps3 on v3.55 then ripped the game via multiman then extracted the model of the car from the code. I got several codes of cars out. I know its tech stuff sorry but yea nowadays the models are online everywhere as cad files.
On my post #42 here http://www.madmechanics.com/forum/consumer-opinions/15662-lamborghini-aventador-5.html (http://www.madmechanics.com/forum/consumer-opinions/15662-lamborghini-aventador-5.html) Its really easy to work w software of that type. I think it takes a bit more work (maybe a few hours to adjust and supper impose the size of a given windshield into the model without re-sizing the model) InspireComposists is an expert he will know the best process for sure.
Also, if we start from scratch then we can make a windshield fiberglass frame using the actual windshield to fit the windshield perfectly. ::beers this is all i know how to pitch in but I dont want to steer this thread elsewhere - too late, but yes we should make another thread regarding available bodies and anticipated hopes in new bodies
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Even if Cki never makes another body from these molds there are several other ppl selling bodies who have their own molds or access to different molds
I spot two people with access to murci molds posting in
This thread , I won't name them it they don't want to publicize it. But they are out there for serious buyers
Lets also not forget robslp640, lamboreplicaforsale etc
There's a number of murci suppliers still out there
Cki was perhaps the most prominent , and that's likely what did him in
Those who operate with less publicity keep churning along
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3D models arnt concrete, you can change them any way you want to fit anything. I can create 3d models from scratch, just by looking at 2d drawings. And i even done one to fit around a tube chassis a customer designed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGoy3W_nvQw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGoy3W_nvQw)
Regarding a windshield, who has 2500 dollars they can give me so i can buy an aventador windshield and make sure it fits a 3d model and the finished plug? that luxury doesnt exists for me and most of us because thats the nature of this hobby, do everything efficiently and cheap. thats how you end up with a supercar without going broke or losing your wife(not that i would know).
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Regarding a windshield, who has 2500 dollars they can give me so i can buy an aventador windshield and make sure it fits a 3d model and the finished plug? that luxury doesnt exists for me and most of us because thats the nature of this hobby, do everything efficiently and cheap. thats how you end up with a supercar without going broke or losing your wife(not that i would know).
Sorry to go slightly off topic here, but INSPIREcomposites, speaking of windshields, is there a factory one that fits into your Venta-R?
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Tusabes,
Lets forget RobsLP640 huh? ;)
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Who ever said 3D models are impossible to change? Someone has taken my statements WAY beyond what was intended. I said it was more work to start from scratch from a 3D model than a finished part or pulling a part from a mold. Tweaking the model adds that much more work. Kind of a no-brainer isn't it? I said it could be done multiple times. ::scratch
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Staying on the the topic. =)
Lamborghini seems to be going after ppl with legit business. Like car kit Inc. Fugazzi.
Robslp640 and others aren't legitimate business owners of replicas. More like extreme hobiest.
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3D models arnt concrete, you can change them any way you want to fit anything. I can create 3d models from scratch, just by looking at 2d drawings. And i even done one to fit around a tube chassis a customer designed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGoy3W_nvQw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGoy3W_nvQw)
Regarding a windshield, who has 2500 dollars they can give me so i can buy an aventador windshield and make sure it fits a 3d model and the finished plug? that luxury doesnt exists for me and most of us because thats the nature of this hobby, do everything efficiently and cheap. thats how you end up with a supercar without going broke or losing your wife(not that i would know).
no, those that know how to build kit cars will find a windshield and make it work.
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Who ever said 3D models are impossible to change? Someone has taken my statements WAY beyond what was intended. I said it was more work to start from scratch from a 3D model than a finished part or pulling a part from a mold. Tweaking the model adds that much more work. Kind of a no-brainer isn't it? I said it could be done multiple times. ::scratch
i dont know much about you pines, have you built a kit car before? or produce any parts or bodies?
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I'm tired of your constant taunting INSPIRE. You have a huge ego and it is truly annoying. I've been trying to keep from calling you out publicly but you just won't leave me alone. You asked for it, you got it. For the sake of your future customers...
Sorry to go slightly off topic here, but INSPIREcomposites, speaking of windshields, is there a factory one that fits into your Venta-R?
no, those that know how to build kit cars will find a windshield and make it work.
So you took a 3D model and produced a body without any thought as to what glass would work in it? THIS is exactly what I am talking about. Yes, this is the cheap and easy way for you but what about your customers? It takes more than just cutting some foam and making some panels to "end up with a supercar without going broke". It takes proper thought, planning and yes, it takes time.
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Let's move the discussion of 3d video game models regarding windshields etc. here http://lamboclone.com/index.php?topic=2613.0 (http://lamboclone.com/index.php?topic=2613.0) I feel like it was mu fault i opened that jar of jam
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No, it was not your fault am33r. I apologize to you and everyone else as well.
For some reason, INSPIREcomposites seems to want to challenge and harass me. He has hijacked three different threads on two different forums now to do this. The only thing I can think of is because my standards are high and he resents that.
Although I would do things differently, I have repeatedly given him credit and respect for the work which he has done. However, I will not lower my standards because of the intimidation tactics of an individual.
I am happy to take this important conversation to the new thread. Maybe the moderators can transfer all related posts to the new thread as well.
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I'm tired of your constant taunting INSPIRE. You have a huge ego and it is truly annoying. I've been trying to keep from calling you out publicly but you just won't leave me alone. You asked for it, you got it. For the sake of your future customers...
Sorry to go slightly off topic here, but INSPIREcomposites, speaking of windshields, is there a factory one that fits into your Venta-R?
no, those that know how to build kit cars will find a windshield and make it work.
So you took a 3D model and produced a body without any thought as to what glass would work in it? THIS is exactly what I am talking about. Yes, this is the cheap and easy way for you but what about your customers? It takes more than just cutting some foam and making some panels to "end up with a supercar without going broke". It takes proper thought, planning and yes, it takes time.
do you think youre exposing me? Im completely honest with my customers and tell them i havent figured out glass yet when i could easily tell them "yeah and OEM windshield works". obviously i would lose alot of customers but thats what i knew when i decided not to put in the extra effort to make a factory glass fit. IKR has acrylic glass that fits mine. and i bet oem glass would fit if not come close. I wasnt worried about it when i was building the plug because again, people that know how to build kit cars, will find a windshield and make it work. Fiberglass isnt concrete either, it can be changed.
you have 900 posts on this forum, but i havent seen anything you have built.
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talked to CKI today ,the trucking company has picked up all the Lambo Molds to be Destroyed ,he is not sure what direction he is going in from here ,it has been a long ordeal ,they are still asking for a list of buyers and or customers names. THEY ARE OUT !!!
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good luck with that lol
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talked to CKI today ,the trucking company has picked up all the Lambo Molds to be Destroyed ,he is not sure what direction he is going in from here ,it has been a long ordeal ,they are still asking for a list of buyers and or customers names. THEY ARE OUT !!!
So i know this has been debated before but can Lamborghini go after the customers who bought a body for personal use? If they are going after a customer list, it seems that is what the end game would be.
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not really going after customers ,trying to see how many kits were sold ,this way they can claim a loss due to the sale,s of the of the replica,s
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it could also monitor if any customers would re splash and continue to re producing their brand.
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not really going after customers ,trying to see how many kits were sold ,this way they can claim a loss due to the sale,s of the of the replica,s
They have already admitted kit buyers would not be customers of the real car
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I think he's closed for good. There is no website anymore and no YouTube Channel either. Hey IKR, did he mention starting over under a other name?
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he,s not sure what his plans are, maybe design something new with no ties to other production cars.
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Greetings to all from Belieze. I would like to answer Notnilc's question and some others on this thread. The short and absolute answer is yes. There is more about this in my post #102,#104, and #108 on this thread. This may sound in direct conflict with PurpleLP670's statement at #112 that it is urban legend that purchasing a knock off is illegal. He is absolutely right, but we are talking about two different things here. As I said in #102 and you can read for yourself in the Petition, the Petition asked for a recall. Since Jackie has defaulted and been found guilty, they now have every right to demand the recall of the copies, even though the owner of the copy is not convicted and did nothing wrong. I believe they are not trying to establish a sales number as IKR suggests, they want to send a message by a recall. There has also been debate about whether this list exists. Tallon and Shulzea may be fortunate enough not to be on it, but I made a serious effort to buy Carkitinc and went to Alabama several times for this, and can tell you that the list does exist and I have seen it, even verified sales to get an accurate cash flow number. I am telling this community again that Jackie did a noble thing for us by falling on his sword. As for them going after Jackie and not Rob, they first have to verify sales and customers, and I am not sure they could actually do that with Rob.