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How To - Tips => Engine & Transmission => Topic started by: sidewayswizzard on January 30, 2016, 05:43:27 AM
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Howdy all.
I've had an idea..... I'm going the tube chassis route and instead of using a transaxle I was thinking of using a V-drive setup like Kevkev done a few years ago.
They are a bit pricey which is fine... But while researching a bit on Kit central someone noted a build they done for a customer where they used a normal Longitudinal engine trans package (which I was wanting to do with a V-drive) but instead used a 4x4 T-case. They didn't mention what they did with the Differential and whether they flipped it or used a diff that runs the other way.
Now while doing yet more research on some of the 4x4 forums where people are using the same recipe in order to make all wheel drive mid engine TT's they mentioned just Flipping the diff in most cases.
I'd find this hard to do on a road car personally as it seems a bit of a bodge running the diff on the coast side rather than the load side.
Now I started thinking about using the front Diff from a 4x4 as in my mind it would run in reverse when loaded in the same way but put in the position of a rear differential. Now this is where I've gone and confused myself and no matter how long I sit there spinning pens and pencils around I can't quite come to a conclusion. An added bonus is that the front diff will likely be offset which I'd need.
Any thoughts on this, can anyone answer the question weather or not a front diff placed in the rear would work in the right direction in this setup?
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I'm using the same layout. You have to flip the front differential to use it in the rear position. Proper oiling of the differential components may be an issue as the diff was not designed to run upside down.
There's not enough room to stuff a full 4x4 transfer case under the car. You need a simplistic single speed transfer case/drop box like SCS makes or a V-Drive.
Look into the TR6060 corvette trans. You can bolt the drop box right on the rear of the trans. This setup allows you to have one less driveshaft, direct oiling from the trans and a overall lighter weight setup.
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The short answer is yes, not because the diff is correct, but because the V-drive will let you turn either way. At least on the marine drives that I am familiar with, the case can mesh the input gear and the output gear together and make the shafts rotate in opposite directions, or it can add a third gear in between them and make the shafts rotate the same direction. What is the advantage of using such a more expensive, complicated, and cumbersome system?
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The differential input needs to turn CCW viewing from the front of the car (if you're using a 4x4 front axle). Otherwise you'll load the gears incorrect. Then use a 3 gear V-Drive, 3 gear drop box or a chain drive.
The attached picture is a SCS box. Same principal as a v-drive but a lot stronger.
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Any photos of the setup? what are you using, V-drive or T-case?
I'm using the same layout. You have to flip the front differential to use it in the rear position. Proper oiling of the differential components may be an issue as the diff was not designed to run upside down.
There's not enough room to stuff a full 4x4 transfer case under the car. You need a simplistic single speed transfer case/drop box like SCS makes or a V-Drive.
Look into the TR6060 corvette trans. You can bolt the drop box right on the rear of the trans. This setup allows you to have one less driveshaft, direct oiling from the trans and a overall lighter weight setup.
I think there are a few advantages which is why I'm at least interested in using it. Aesthetics for one weight distribution, limitless transmission options and the same for Diffs if the rotation issue can be sorted out. I like launching and driving like a general Yahoo most of the time and I have a feeling with 450 plus wheel horse power an Audi transaxle won't cut it.
The short answer is yes, not because the diff is correct, but because the V-drive will let you turn either way. At least on the marine drives that I am familiar with, the case can mesh the input gear and the output gear together and make the shafts rotate in opposite directions, or it can add a third gear in between them and make the shafts rotate the same direction. What is the advantage of using such a more expensive, complicated, and cumbersome system?
If I went the V-drive route I've heard the Casale Units are good. What do the SCS boxes run price wise? I couldn't find any pricing on the website. Wouldn't a chain drive bring the same issues with Diff rotation as the 4x4 T-case?
The differential input needs to turn CCW viewing from the front of the car (if you're using a 4x4 front axle). Otherwise you'll load the gears incorrect. Then use a 3 gear V-Drive, 3 gear drop box or a chain drive.
The attached picture is a SCS box. Same principal as a v-drive but a lot stronger.
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No pictures yet. I wasted a lot of time listening to others and now I'm doing this my own way. I'm building my own chain drive drop box transfer case. Using the guts from a NP203. A chain drive gives the correct output rotation and won't be noisy like straight cut gears. And a chain drive is an easier build than gears if you are doing it from scratch.
An SCS box will be a $1000+.
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We have 3 cars running V-drive set ups, so nice having direct shifter feel at your finger tips and better weight distribution, plus the added bonus of running auto and no power limitations
Leon
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Sideways and Schulze,
I too have considered this as a viable option for the drivetrain. I hope there can be more discussion on this topic and additional brainstorming which I'd like to be involved with.
Does anyone have update or progress to this idea?
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Hi Leon, I have been thinking of going the same route, and changing from the 1uz and 016 to the m70 with a v drive, do you find the v drives noisy, the only one I have ever heard was in a Batmobile replica on a film set video, and it put me off completely, I sounded more like a supercharger whining on full boost, and it was only doing 20mph, can you advice your experience with the v drives
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No pictures yet. I wasted a lot of time listening to others and now I'm doing this my own way. I'm building my own chain drive drop box transfer case. Using the guts from a NP203. A chain drive gives the correct output rotation and won't be noisy like straight cut gears. And a chain drive is an easier build than gears if you are doing it from scratch.
An SCS box will be a $1000+.
How are you changing the rotation with a chain drive gear box if it is rotating CC (looking from the front of the car?
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No pictures yet. I wasted a lot of time listening to others and now I'm doing this my own way. I'm building my own chain drive drop box transfer case. Using the guts from a NP203. A chain drive gives the correct output rotation and won't be noisy like straight cut gears. And a chain drive is an easier build than gears if you are doing it from scratch.
An SCS box will be a $1000+.
How are you changing the rotation with a chain drive gear box if it is rotating CC (looking from the front of the car?
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I'm not changing it from CCW...
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Just a thought guys. A Gilmer belt can handle plenty of horsepower. Why not take a tip from Harley and make it belt drive?
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No pictures yet. I wasted a lot of time listening to others and now I'm doing this my own way. I'm building my own chain drive drop box transfer case. Using the guts from a NP203. A chain drive gives the correct output rotation and won't be noisy like straight cut gears. And a chain drive is an easier build than gears if you are doing it from scratch.
An SCS box will be a $1000+.
How are you changing the rotation with a chain drive gear box if it is rotating CC (looking from the front of the car?
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I'm not changing it from CCW...
Then you will be using a custom rear differential?
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No pictures yet. I wasted a lot of time listening to others and now I'm doing this my own way. I'm building my own chain drive drop box transfer case. Using the guts from a NP203. A chain drive gives the correct output rotation and won't be noisy like straight cut gears. And a chain drive is an easier build than gears if you are doing it from scratch.
An SCS box will be a $1000+.
How are you changing the rotation with a chain drive gear box if it is rotating CC (looking from the front of the car?
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I'm not changing it from CCW...
Then you will be using a custom rear differential?
The diff is GM OE. I'm using an AAM 9.25"
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Wow! Good job, Alan. That one looks to handle sizeable HP. That one has the aluminum case also? That will be a nice setup. ::thumbup
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I tried doing this concept, first with a 2jz motor then a LS motor via a th425 trans with the diff removed and I tried serveral front 4x4 diff to get it to work. My plan was to do a reverse rotation install with the drivetrain. I did a post about this along time ago here but all the pics are now gone. I will try to see if I can find some on my home computer.
But in the end it was just going to require too many untested custom parts to be machined. I ended up just doing a turbo LS4 and its been great for 3+ years now..
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found some pics-
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TonyPaul,
As I understand, the V-Drive setup is popular in the Trophy Truck desert racing industry when the mid-engine is desired... granted they have more room to play with than what these vehicles would have. Those pictures you've posted look like you indeed gave it a great shot, I wonder if a slight change in design would have offered different results. Regardless, I've seen a picture and brief description of your current setup, maybe we can discuss more about what is proven to work for you in a different thread or through PM?
76mx,
I like the "out of the box" thinking with regards to going into a belt drive set up, I'm sure I can engineer something that would prove the Gilmer belt plausible... and a good option for noise reduction, cool idea!
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My project I wont say was a total failure, I could have got it to work. But the cost/time that it was going to take just wasnt worth it to me. I looked into the V-drives, they were either too expensive or too big for the space I had using the streched fiero frame.
I dont regret doing the turbo LS4 at all, the transmission was a pretty big investment but its been extremely reliable at 500-550hp. If someone has the skillset and machining equiptment or know someone who does it would be a great project. I would like to see someone try a V-drive setup and really drive it like a real preformance car...
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Active, check the Motion Industries Catalog for design info on timing belts. The number of teeth in the belt mesh is more important than belt width and tooth pitch when calculating this. For instance, the same belt will handle much more HP around two pulleys of the same size which puts 50% of the teeth in the mesh than it will wrapped around three pulleys forming a triangle which puts less teeth engaging on all pulleys.
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This may be a viable solution to the V drive. I just ran across these looking for something else and haven't researched it yet.
http://www.kramp.com/shop-ch/en/365054/499933/0/Comer+gearboxes+A-16A+1%3A1 (http://www.kramp.com/shop-ch/en/365054/499933/0/Comer+gearboxes+A-16A+1%3A1)
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This may be a viable solution to the V drive. I just ran across these looking for something else and haven't researched it yet.
[url]http://www.kramp.com/shop-ch/en/365054/499933/0/Comer+gearboxes+A-16A+1%3A1[/url] ([url]http://www.kramp.com/shop-ch/en/365054/499933/0/Comer+gearboxes+A-16A+1%3A1[/url])
Those are only rated for 85hp, maybe ok if your using a Fiero Iron Duke motor.
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This may be a viable solution to the V drive. I just ran across these looking for something else and haven't researched it yet.
[url]http://www.kramp.com/shop-ch/en/365054/499933/0/Comer+gearboxes+A-16A+1%3A1[/url] ([url]http://www.kramp.com/shop-ch/en/365054/499933/0/Comer+gearboxes+A-16A+1%3A1[/url])
Those are only rated for 85hp, maybe ok if your using a Fiero Iron Duke motor.
The 85hp rating is a bit misleading. The gearbox is designed to be pto driven by a 85hp tractor. The actual pto torque would be over 600 ft lb's.
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just imagine the possiblities of this setup in a kit car-
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Schulez,
I agree with the torque spec of that gearbox being a major contributing factor of its strength. At first sight my initial concerns would be that it appears to have three gears rather than two, posing a conflict with drive shaft rotation requirements, along with the operating RPM that the box/bearings are designed to operate within. Never the less, it does look simplistic and stout and is a great basis for a design.
I suppose we are confronted with two variables and how heavily we weigh each within their own respect.
A: Cost. If reliable high horse power ratings are the goal, an R8 gearbox can be sourced currently in the $9k - $11k range or a Mendeola around the $12k mark along with other options from Porsche, so this would be a margin to cap this project off from as the transaxle approach is clearly more reasonable.
B: Design. If the intellectual value of achievement in conquering this design holds more weight than the cost of any related components, then by any realistic means this proposed layout is choice.
Your thoughts?
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