Author Topic: 3800 SC Not starting  (Read 2116 times)

★Murci-Me★

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Re: 3800 SC Not starting
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2017, 12:11:16 AM »
I worry when you say there is "lots of fuel in the cylinders"... since there shouldn't be.

I would first check the fuel pressure with an inline gauge. If it's good then get a noid light and check the injectors are firing properly.  If you have "lots of fuel in the cylinders" it wouldn't start with the starter fluid so likely you're not getting enough fuel.

I'm thinking the same thing, there shouldn't be any fuel in the cylinders. When the injectors squirt, they create a fine mist which will evaporate quickly if not ignited.
Remember, gasoline is oil based, Meaning if theres water in your tank, the gas will float on top of the water. The problem is, fuel pumps pick up fuel from the bottom of your tank. If theres water in your tank, the fuel pump is sending water to your injectors which in turn are squirting it into your cylinders, Removing the spark plugs and seeing a wet cylinder is more than likely water, which will not evaporate in the cylinder like gas would. Spraying starter fluid into the throttle body would give you the fuel you need and the cylinders would fire (the engine would run) until the started fluid in the manifold got used up then the engine would die.
So in a nutshell, i'm going to say you have water in your fuel tank.
Drain your tank and fuel system completely, let it air out for an hour or so then put some fresh gas in. It should start right up. If there is water in your tank and you've been trying to start the engine, you probably have water in your oil now as well. That residual water left in your cylinders will drain down between your pistons and cylinder walls and right into your oil pan. water is heavier than oil, so its at the bottom of your pan, right where your oil pump will be drawing oil from. Change your oil as well or you will seize your engine due to the water mixed with oil.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 12:13:44 AM by ★Murci-Me★ »

Neils88

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Re: 3800 SC Not starting
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2017, 03:16:51 PM »
I worry when you say there is "lots of fuel in the cylinders"... since there shouldn't be.

I would first check the fuel pressure with an inline gauge. If it's good then get a noid light and check the injectors are firing properly.  If you have "lots of fuel in the cylinders" it wouldn't start with the starter fluid so likely you're not getting enough fuel.

CCIE

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Re: 3800 SC Not starting
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2017, 02:45:53 PM »
I was under the impression the engine did turn over but wouldn't start on its own without the help of starter fluid, as stated in your post.
I guess i'm lost by what you mean when you say "turning over".
Yes, an engine will turn over without any sensors attached or working, even if it doesn't have any gas in the tank or oil in the pan or coolant in the radiator. You can completely remove the engine from the car, strip off the throttle body/carburetor and intake manifold, exhaust manifold, water pump and alternator, fan belts, smog pump, power steering pump and so on, and it will still turn over (as long as its not seized) when you give 12v to the starter and starter solenoid.
Will it run? No, but it will definitely turn over!
As Neils88 said, if the engine wont "turn over" its either a dead battery, bad sarter motor or starter solenoid, or a bad ignition switch.


Oh and BTW if all that checks out to be fine, maybe you just don't have enough air in your tires :)

Murci....... My apology..... I am just a computer dude and don't have all the car terminology down. Honestly now I am confused about the terms used myself.
Here is what I have going!!!
There is power, Battery is new
Starter is good and runs and "turns the engine over"
There is spark, made sure by testing it
Sounds like the fuel pump kicks in (when I put the key in and half turn I can hear something kicking in besides the air pump) but will check to confirm again
There is fuel in the cylinders, when testing the spark-plug (I removed and found there was plenty of fuel in the cylinders)
I haven't checked the fuel rails to see if there is plenty of fuel pressure but I suspect there is,
The Diablo wont start (fire up?) and run but it will for a few if I put starter fluid in the throttle
I had no issues with the Diablo running even after sitting for months in storage but its after the jackass cleaned out my throttle body it wont start and run on its own.
I am sorry for the confusion!!! I am dealing with a crisis (besides my Diablo not running) we had flooding in our neighborhood and multiple folks had there basement flooded including me and of course the insurance is not covering it as we did not have flood insurance (though we are not in a flood zone) I am paying a premium (Premium as in over 2K per year) for my home owner insurance but I am not covered.... Funny thing is that I am covered in case there was a nuclear attack, or social unrest, and I am sure I might even be covered for "Zombie Apocalypse"  stuff that one wouldn't think could possibly happen but for basic water damage NO COVERAGE!!!!!
Anyway my apology for using the wrong terminology to explain the engine issue
Hope this helps
By the way the pic is from a week ago from my front door and it was a lot worse then the pic shows, the river is actually my front street
And "YES" there is a guy in a red kayak canoeing down my front street!!!!!!


CCIE
« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 03:05:15 PM by CCIE »

★Murci-Me★

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Re: 3800 SC Not Turning Over
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2017, 07:50:10 PM »
I was under the impression the engine did turn over but wouldn't start on its own without the help of starter fluid, as stated in your post.
I guess i'm lost by what you mean when you say "turning over".
Yes, an engine will turn over without any sensors attached or working, even if it doesn't have any gas in the tank or oil in the pan or coolant in the radiator. You can completely remove the engine from the car, strip off the throttle body/carburetor and intake manifold, exhaust manifold, water pump and alternator, fan belts, smog pump, power steering pump and so on, and it will still turn over (as long as its not seized) when you give 12v to the starter and starter solenoid.
Will it run? No, but it will definitely turn over!
As Neils88 said, if the engine wont "turn over" its either a dead battery, bad sarter motor or starter solenoid, or a bad ignition switch.


Oh and BTW if all that checks out to be fine, maybe you just don't have enough air in your tires :)

Neils88

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Re: 3800 SC Not Turning Over
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2017, 07:00:23 PM »
The Diablo wont turn over.

As mention below...if the engine "won't turn over" then it's not a fuel problem.  It'd be something like a bad battery, bad starter motor, seized engine, ignition switch problems etc. 

But you clearly stated that it started with starter fluid, that means that IS "turning over".  In that case it is most likely a fuel system problem.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 07:02:21 PM by Neils88 »

CCIE

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Re: 3800 SC Not Turning Over
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2017, 03:37:17 PM »
Thank you all for responding!!!!

The Diablo wont turn over.
There is gas in the cylinders (to a point its flooded) and I can hear the fuel pump kick on. Although I will check again.
The Diablo was in storage but it started up right away with no hesitation before I brought it home but its been in my drive way for few weeks (covered) and I had the throttle cable changed, its only after the throttle body was cleaned it wont turn over, I have checked all the connectors and they are all in place.  I am wondering if one was to remove the MAS sensor will the engine turn over or if the MAS sensor was bad will it turn over or show other symptoms?
Please keep your suggestions coming and I will post the results. I am sure this will also help others with 3800 SC engines out there. I know dirty throttle body is an issue with these engine and needs to be cleaned out.
Unfortunately Ohio weather is crazy with all the rain. I will try to post pic later today, that is if it stays clear and I get a chance to work outside today.

Thank You IKR but please keep your thoughts coming Its not about approval its about forum help and I trust your knowledge in replicas!!!!!
Thank You Murci.... I will keep digging
Thank You 01Lambiero.... Will check the fuel pressure reg

You guys are awesome!!!!!!!!
 
« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 03:41:15 PM by CCIE »

★Murci-Me★

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Re: 3800 SC Not Starting
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2017, 11:15:10 PM »
Umm, carburetor cleaner would not 'fry" a sensor. All sensors are usually encased in epoxy or urethane and are impervious to moisture or solvents. Even if carb cleaner could get inside of the sensor it would evaporate out in a few minutes and be fine, as long as voltage isn't applied to the sensor when its still wet with cleaner. Odds of something like that happening is literally about 1 in a billion. The ONLY thing that would damage/ruin a sensor is a electricity, either a ground fault or a circuit overload (voltage spike or voltage to high, short to ground or reverse polarity), or excessive heat (over 350 degrees). Assuming your mechanic didn't throw your sensor against a wall or replace it with a faulty one, its not your problem.

These forums only work to help people when the information/advice is based on fact and knowledge instead of misinformation based on guessing or "try this try that" type of mechanics.
If the car will NOT start without starter fluid, yet runs momentarily when primed with fluid, The problem in NOT a MAS or other sensor. Bad sensors will likely cause idle or acceleration problems, but since the car will not start AT ALL without starting fluid, it is obviously a fuel problem. 
Check for fuel pressure. If none is present, check your fuel pump relay. If its good, check your fuel pump. Also check your fuel filter, if its clogged at all you might experience low fuel rail pressure, but that would only affect the motor/power on acceleration or higher rpm's. Its VERY rare for a clogged fuel filter to affect the engine starting unless it is extremely clogged.
Either way, you have a fuel problem.
Post your findings.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 11:27:20 PM by ★Murci-Me★ »

italianknightrider

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Re: 3800 SC Not Starting
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2017, 10:32:31 PM »
 Buy a used MAS airflow sensor / IAC ,first ,to get the engine running again ....if he used Carb cleaner he fried this sensor in the process of cleaning the gunk out of the inlet.

 http://forums.aaca.org/topic/9231-cleaning-a-idle-air-control-iac-valve/

I hope u get it fixed ..... i,m out of it ....i don,t need approval !!
« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 10:48:37 AM by italianknightrider »
We hope our post help someone finish their build or get them interested in our hobby and start a build.

★Murci-Me★

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Re: 3800 SC Not Starting
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2017, 09:13:33 PM »
If it fires up with starter fluid its probably ot your throttle body. Being that you have spark (engines runs with starter fluid), and there's gas in the tank, its probably fuel related (Injector wiring, fuel pump relay). Have you verified you have fuel pressure at the fuel rail? Can you verify the fuel pump runs?
Throttle bodies are pretty simple in design, I wouldn't imagine your problem lies with that. If the engine starts with starter fluid but then dies after all the fluid is burned off, I would look at your fuel system before buying any sensors or a new throttle body.

CCIE

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3800 SC Not starting
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2017, 08:11:55 PM »
All!!!

So I had this yahoo come over and clean out my throttle body in my NAERC Diablo 60 and since then the engine wont start.
Background.
The Diablo sat in storage for several months, I pulled it out and noticed the accelerator pedal was really tough to move/sticking after oiling it a bit including the throttle (where the cable is connected) I started the car with no issues and ran fine. After doing a bit of digging found the throttle body was fairly bad and covered in gunked
I had the throttle cable replaced and asked that the throttle body be cleaned out but after the jerk cleaned out the throttle body he disparaged and since then the engine wont turn over. There is gas and spark plugs do indeed have spark. If I put starter fluid in the throttle body intake it will fire up for a bit but then die. I suspect its the MAS airflow sensor that the jerk might have destroyed while cleaning the throttle body.
Questions
If the MAS airflow sensor is bad will the engine just not turn over or will I have other symptoms like turning over but running rough or something else? Is there other sensors that I can check that would cause the engine to not turn over? This is a cable driven 3800 SC series 2
What do you all think it could be.
Before I replace the MAS sensor or the whole throttle assembly, I figure I ask the awesome knowledgeable folks on this forum.
Suggestions that I can try beside blindly replacing parts?
What else would cause engine not turning over.
Any advise is greatly appreciated

Thanks
CCIE
PS I even consider bad gas but tried putting few gallons of fresh gas though I did not flush out the old gas which was barely there in the first place (almost empty)

« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 01:37:55 PM by CCIE »