batbuilder's LP640 called "No Mercie"

[BigPines]

Very nice work simoncbrr1. Sounds like you are going the road I plan to take. I may have to pick your brain as I get more into the carbon fiber stuff.

I'd also love to hear an update on BatBuilder's LP640.

[simoncbrr1]

Batbuilder, just got done reading this entire thread and I love the attention to detail you are putting in your build. Love that you have multiple projects going, that way you can switch whenever you get bored of one and never burnt out on the entire thing! I have dabbled in making a few carbon parts and wanted to make a few recommendations. I make all my parts out of epoxy as the adhesion is better and the strength is better. The epoxy I get is fairly cheap and works well. I use infusion and the quality of parts is pretty good and with experience I'm sure I'll have perfect parts soon. I use frekote mold sealer and frekote release and it works beautifully. No surface transfer like pva and the release is perfect every time, unlike wax. I'm pretty sure you can use it on all types of molds. You can get it and carbon fiber for pretty cheap from soller composites. Also I get my resin from eBay, max clr, the one specifically designed for infusion. I also use a 2k uv and gas resistant clear to finish my parts. I attached some b-pillars from a 350z that I made.

[BigPines]

Hahaha. I would take that challenge myself! I believe 76mx's tongue is in his cheek too!

Hydro dipping is very cool stuff and like vinyl, a great alternative for one who only cares about cosmetics.

[Tusabes]

Hydrographic is cool but looks fake like plastic
3m DiNoc vinyl wrap looks better to me

[Digibeam]

I would take that challenge....

[76mx]

Just a thought here, but vinyl is yesterdays news. Make a conventional economical fiberglass part, economically hydro dip it with carbon fiber film, and I challenge anyone to hold this part and a real carbon one in their hand and tell which one is which. All you need is about $100 and a bathtub to do several square yards worth of parts. 

[BigPines]

We are all entitled to our own opinions and we can make our own decisions. Most people are perfectly happy with fiberglass. Since I am making my own parts, doing CF is not very expensive so I am doing it. Dave is looking to do CF himself and that is the reason we are on this topic.

I think I have made my point so I won't harp on it anymore here.

Sorry Dave, back to your build.

[Tallon]

Well we're not building race cars and if our panels shatter, fg or carbon I don't see where the difference will come in if it's not used for just looks.. If these are interior pieces, I don't see when there will ever be a difference other than having the satisfaction, only you will know, of having a full carbon part covered in leather and more money in your build. This is usually when someone would custom order a full carbon part for themself. Not everyone can afford that and I think this is why Dave would want to give more economical options.

I think most lambo owners only care that their car is made of carbon because it means they have an expensive car not because it's light and "stronger."

[BigPines]

Hehehehe

I agree. That was just a dumb tongue in cheek comment to illustrate that some people don't really care about the weight or strength benefits of CF. All they want is the look.

[Tallon]

I don't think carbon vinyl is a good alternative to a real carbon skin...
and it's usually wrapped around a painted/clear coated part not bare fg?

[BigPines]

Yeah, I understand some people are just after the CF look because it is trendy and they want it on the cheap. If that's all you want, just vinyl wrap fiberglass. That is a lot easier and cheaper. For myself, I want more.

It is funny how some people say, this or that is "good enough for a kit car". I don't look at it that way. I try to decide what is the best method (within reason) to make a part. This is a car I am building, not a "kit car".

My advice was to look into using the generally accepted best method (within our reach anyway). It's not like I said something ridiculous like use an autoclave. Each to their own. Maybe it won't work out for me but that is my first choice. If it doesn't work out, I will fall back to vacuum bagging. I will use basic wet layup as a method of last resort.

[INSPIREcomposite (BANNED)]

Are you speaking from experience INSPIREcomposites? Have you tried infusion? I would be interested to hear any problems you encountered. I am definitely going there and will be sure to let people know how it goes for me.

no i have not, because i understand that it is not necessary for me to use that method over vacuum bagging. its not necessary for kit car parts because its more complex, and the added strength isnt needed. simple as that.

this is batbuilders qoute "I think the process has to be somewhat simple and efficient to keep the prices within the realm of the average Joe."

somewhat simple and efficient is the key words, i gave him pretty good advice. a way to do it simple and cost effective to get a CF look. i think suggesting he do infusion is bad advice. try infusing a bumper and tell me how easy that is for an amateur, and its not as simple as just "adding a hose" to a vacuum bagging method.

[INSPIREcomposite (BANNED)]

I personally don't understand the practice of doing carbon-glass mix.

mike. in the last 20 years, many of the aftermarket "cf" hoods that they sell to tuners have been a top layer and bottom layer of cf and the core glass to save money. so obviously their is a good reason for it.

[BigPines]

Are you speaking from experience INSPIREcomposites? Have you tried infusion? I would be interested to hear any problems you encountered. I am definitely going there and will be sure to let people know how it goes for me.

[INSPIREcomposite (BANNED)]

Yes Big Pines and Rawbuilder I have actually had a chance to see that process done. I think its the best but then again we are talking kit car bodies. I think the process has to be somewhat simple and efficient to keep the prices within the realm of the average Joe. Talking about myself. I do like the wet layup for the carbon fiber and also using vinylester for my cars but I would probably produce additional pieces in random mat and polyester resin which is fine for what we do. In my humble opinion.
I have recently had a chance to tour a kit car manufacturer, aerospace manufacturer and Viking Pools manufacture plant north of Sacramento. All were so different and yet so much alike. The aerospace manufacture was producing wind turbine generator blades. Just incredible work.

vacuum bagging with a top layer of cf and the rest of the layers in glass would be efficient in terms of cost, look, and finish of part. I myself have started getting into vacuum bagging with cf, its alot of fun.

Vacuum bagging is better than standard wet layup for sure but in my mind, why not just do infusion? It is cheaper because it uses less resin, the parts are lighter, stronger and have a better surface quality. I don't see much of a downside compared to standard vacuum bagging. The only extra complexity is one resin hose.

I personally don't understand the practice of doing carbon-glass mix. You have the added expense of carbon without the strength of pure carbon and you get most the weight of glass. If you are purely doing a dress part, you could make an argument for it I guess but I wouldn't bother. Carbon isn't *THAT* expensive. You'd be so much better off using carbon with a foam core.

Mike

infusion is really an extreme way of fabricating carbon fiber panels, its really meant for the aero industry that need the most optimum weight reduction in panels. koenigsegg and pagani doesnt even do infusion because its not necessary for auto applications. lexus does do an injection for their monocoque tub though, but thats lexus, a billion dollar company. its alot more difficult to do, takes alot more time and a harder learning curve than just regular vacuum bagging.

you can just use carbon veil behind the first layer of carbon fiber weave so that it doesnt show through.