Front engine Aventador

[670SV]

I think finding the right spring to put in your door is the least of your problems with this build. I agree with VF1Skullangle, why don't you just buy a Fiero with a V8 in the back? It would probably be cheaper than building on the Camaro, and you could make your car look far more accurate than it will ever be on the Camaro. I don't think you have any clue what you're getting into with this, its going to be a very long and expensive build, way more than you could possibly know. Lamborghini builds are the most expensive to begin with, but what you are trying to do will compound the build time and costs even further. I think you're gonna need alot more Play-doh. 

Simple as it may be, stretching one is far outside my means.

Wait, you're saying stretching a Fiero is outside your means? why is that?

[eddie]

if everything goes well for him it should look like that clay model he did.  I love that body work with Play dough, very natural .

[ronin]

I think finding the right spring to put in your door is the least of your problems with this build. I agree with VF1Skullangle, why don't you just buy a Fiero with a V8 in the back? It would probably be cheaper than building on the Camaro, and you could make your car look far more accurate than it will ever be on the Camaro. I don't think you have any clue what you're getting into with this, its going to be a very long and expensive build, way more than you could possibly know. Lamborghini builds are the most expensive to begin with, but what you are trying to do will compound the build time and costs even further. I think you're gonna need alot more Play-doh. 

Simple as it may be, stretching one is far outside my means.

[Transcend]

Well lets not discourage our friend here, if it happens, it happens. I will be casually following this thread to see how it works out 

[670SV]

I think finding the right spring to put in your door is the least of your problems with this build. I agree with VF1Skullangle, why don't you just buy a Fiero with a V8 in the back? It would probably be cheaper than building on the Camaro, and you could make your car look far more accurate than it will ever be on the Camaro. I don't think you have any clue what you're getting into with this, its going to be a very long and expensive build, way more than you could possibly know. Lamborghini builds are the most expensive to begin with, but what you are trying to do will compound the build time and costs even further. I think you're gonna need alot more Play-doh. 

[ronin]

Having owned a 1996 "4th Gen" Camaro for the last project I had.


I can tell you that you will run into a lot of design flaws and issues going with this. I thought it was a great idea as Carkitinc I'm sure also thought about using a 4th gen to build a Lamborghini on it and take full advantage of the LS1 V8 for power and all the little goodies but the truth of the matter is it doesn't work that way. there's a lot to consider especially if your building around the original body. You won't be able to relocate the wind screen to be lower without a substantal amount of work. Pretty much you should just consider cutting off the roof and building from scratch like most Fiero's have done. Not to mention moving the glass further down will set it over the engine and man your gonna have issues with heating big time especially if you go LS1 for power.

Secondly "Stretching" a 4th gen in my opinion is a BIG NONO! I highly even suggested against carkitinc doing it for their "Murcy 4X" which was suppose to be their proper wheel base Murcy 4 kit. You could stretch a 4th gen but honestly I wouldn't. Even removing metal for a T-Top conversion was scary enough and cause quite bit of lose ends. I couldn't imagine how bad the Murcy 4 handles around corners or how "Lose" it feels going down the road. Stretching it would require a great degree of work. Possibly more than using a Fiero or MR2 or Boxster. You just can't cut down the middle and add sheet metal and tube and call it a day without running into more compomisies. Those Lambo door kits for these 4th gen's are also going to make the car look completely caddywompus. They will not hold well and will not give the proper effect. Another thing to consider is the door glass system is already flawed on the 4th gens, I had to get an after market system to fix mine so another thing to consider....id also advise going against those to having installed those same set of $300(Back in 2010) on a Mustang.

If you think those 4th gens are easy to maintain think again. I think I spent more money fixing a lot of flaws on the car than the car was worth. Having had the time to play with the car I learned quite a bit about them. They're nice cars but very expensive and labor intensive to get them right. You really need to be a Fbody guy to enjoy them. otherwise your gonna end up spending lots of money and not having what you want. If I could travel back in time I wouldn't have bought the camaro and I would have saved my money and bought something else, even if it was a non stretched countach. Having spent 7k starting out with basic v6 camaro and making into a wannabe Buick Grand National and I'm still not even close to being done yet.

If I was you. Id go buy a Fiero with a swapped V8 in it. Or you could always give this guy a call...

2013 lamborghini aventador replica

He could probably help you better than I could. He builds them on Corvettes....

 My project does not involve any modification to the chassis other then enlarging the rear wheel wells and I am not setting the windshield nearly as far forward as you seam to think (though I know there are complications in doing even that.

I've cut up and experimented with a wrecked 97 Camaro. It looks to me like it uses "strength by shape" principals, something commonly used in architecture and something I myself use allot in firearm building. It's a good idea but it requires allot of science and R&D to get right and that's probably the biggest reason why modifying a Camaro chassis makes me very nervous. I know how to make it work in firearms but not in cars, and; knowing how to make it work in firearms means I am well aware how extremely delicate it really is. It's sort of like a house of cards. Pull just one card and the whole thing comes crashing down. Unless I come across a proven and time tested case of such mod being successfully done and I have all the facts about it, I would not be open to modifying the chassis of a 4th gen Camaro.

 I am interested in hearing more about your problems. You're the first 4th gen Camaro owner I've heard a single bad thing about them from.

...using AR-15 recoil buffers and springs to launch the doors out automatically when opened.

That is an interesting approach. I'll be interested to see how well this works. So you'll be hiding a buffer tube in there somewhere? The parts would certainly be easy enough to get.

Mike

 I am actually probably going to use Armalite AR-10 springs with 15 buffers since AR-10 springs are significantly more powerful then 15 and the Armalites are not only very reliable but also non-corrosive. I am not sure if I am going to use a buffer tube or not. For this purpose, a regular old steel pipe might make more sense. The problem with buffer tubes is they depend on a button mounted in the lower receiver to stop the spring which themselves are only meant to work briefly while the gun is field stripped. Comparatively a spring stop is needed that would work during recoil as this is basically what's happening when the doors are being opened and closed. Minor machining and welding may be needed to make this possible and what is good for that is a thicker tube made of steel, as where AR-15 buffer tubes are thin and made of aluminum.

...using AR-15 recoil buffers and springs to launch the doors out automatically when opened.

That is an interesting approach. I'll be interested to see how well this works. So you'll be hiding a buffer tube in there somewhere? The parts would certainly be easy enough to get.

Mike

Are you wanting to use these tubes to "pop" the doors up (give them a boost) or lift the doors up and hold the doors up instead of gas door shocks?  Inexpensive gas door shocks can pop the doors up when unlatched with a door popper when the weight of the door is less than the force exerted by the shock and fulcrum point on the door.  The issue with using a door shock that is too strong is the risk of door always pushing up on the latch (might lead to a door opening accidental) or more practically, pulling the door back down into the latched position once you are sitting in the car.  Keep in mind that standing outside the car and pushing down on the door is much different than sitting in a car and trying to pull down on the door.  Ideally the weight of the doors should be balanced with the strength of the shock so they'll pop up nicely by themselves when unlatched but require minimal pull force when trying to pull them closed.  This is why some members have suggested using the Grainger adjustable gas shocks that allow you to let some gas out of the shocks to achieve that perfect balance.

Chris

The scissor door kit I am looking at getting go out and up but how far out is adjustable. This is important to me because the only value in scissor doors for me is tight parking, so I don't want them going out any further then necessary. The ones I am getting also come with gas shocks to lift the doors once they reach the clearance. Normally you have to open the doors out manually to get them to the pivot point. I am looking at using AR-15 buffers to launch them to the lift point clicking the door handle. The main reason for it is that I would like to eventually install this feature:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLFPCBdUoWQ

I think the design flaw in these cars is the large doors that allow rear seat access. They look like sporty cars with barn doors. Shortening the front of the door 8 or 10 inches is a must.
 Sectioning the bottom of the door 5 or so inches and moving forward the windshield 8 inches and down 4 inches would go a long way giving an exotic look.
Lots of room in those doors and they are made of plastic and fiberglass so cutting them up should be easy still leaving plenty of room for the windows.

 I watched a documentary about the Lamborghini Aventador where the makers themselves stated that one of the reasons for scissor doors is because Lamborghini Aventador doors are very long and would not go well in tight parking. While I agree with you about their doors for common sports cars, for making a Lamborghini Aventador look alike, if anything their too small.

[notnilc20]

...using AR-15 recoil buffers and springs to launch the doors out automatically when opened.

That is an interesting approach. I'll be interested to see how well this works. So you'll be hiding a buffer tube in there somewhere? The parts would certainly be easy enough to get.

Mike

Are you wanting to use these tubes to "pop" the doors up (give them a boost) or lift the doors up and hold the doors up instead of gas door shocks?  Inexpensive gas door shocks can pop the doors up when unlatched with a door popper when the weight of the door is less than the force exerted by the shock and fulcrum point on the door.  The issue with using a door shock that is too strong is the risk of door always pushing up on the latch (might lead to a door opening accidental) or more practically, pulling the door back down into the latched position once you are sitting in the car.  Keep in mind that standing outside the car and pulling down on the door to close it is much different than sitting in a car and trying to pull down on the door.  Ideally the weight of the doors should be balanced with the strength of the shock so they'll pop up nicely by themselves when unlatched but require minimal pull force when trying to pull them closed.  This is why some members have suggested using the Grainger adjustable gas shocks that allow you to let some gas out of the shocks to achieve that perfect balance.

Chris

I think, since he is going to do like the aftermarket lambo door knock offs, where you first open the door out like a normal car and then up like scissor action he is going to use the springs to first pop them out and you would then open them up scissor-wise manually. Could be wrong though.

[BigPines]

Chris, that makes a lot of sense to me.

[satinta]

I think the design flaw in these cars is the large doors that allow rear seat access. They look like sporty cars with barn doors. Shortening the front of the door 8 or 10 inches is a must.
 Sectioning the bottom of the door 5 or so inches and moving forward the windshield 8 inches and down 4 inches would go a long way giving an exotic look.
Lots of room in those doors and they are made of plastic and fiberglass so cutting them up should be easy still leaving plenty of room for the windows.

[No Bull]

...using AR-15 recoil buffers and springs to launch the doors out automatically when opened.

That is an interesting approach. I'll be interested to see how well this works. So you'll be hiding a buffer tube in there somewhere? The parts would certainly be easy enough to get.

Mike

Are you wanting to use these tubes to "pop" the doors up (give them a boost) or lift the doors up and hold the doors up instead of gas door shocks?  Inexpensive gas door shocks can pop the doors up when unlatched with a door popper when the weight of the door is less than the force exerted by the shock and fulcrum point on the door.  The issue with using a door shock that is too strong is the risk of door always pushing up on the latch (might lead to a door opening accidental) or more practically, pulling the door back down into the latched position once you are sitting in the car.  Keep in mind that standing outside the car and pushing down on the door is much different than sitting in a car and trying to pull down on the door.  Ideally the weight of the doors should be balanced with the strength of the shock so they'll pop up nicely by themselves when unlatched but require minimal pull force when trying to pull them closed.  This is why some members have suggested using the Grainger adjustable gas shocks that allow you to let some gas out of the shocks to achieve that perfect balance.

Chris

[BigPines]

...using AR-15 recoil buffers and springs to launch the doors out automatically when opened.

That is an interesting approach. I'll be interested to see how well this works. So you'll be hiding a buffer tube in there somewhere? The parts would certainly be easy enough to get.

Mike

[ronin]

Umm, doesn't changing the front hood line of the Aventador defeat your previous argument that a front engine donor car can be successfully used to build an Aventador on without changing the front hood line?
I mean, if you're willing to change the height of the front hood, I guess you could use a Chevy Tahoe as a donor if you wanted, right?

Excluding the windshield, there were only 3 mods to the front hood on the model, all of which can be made to the real car without modifying the chassis. 1, the mirror covers were removed from the fenders. 2, most of the front bumper was removed and 3, the wheel wells in the front fenders were widened a tiny bit. Everything else in the picture is stock.

 The goal is and has always been to do this project without modifying the chassis. I didn't say anything about changing the hood or bumper.

 There actually is one little chassis mod but it's harmless and can be done in an afternoon and i's to the other side of the car.

[670SV]

Umm, doesn't changing the front hood line of the Aventador defeat your previous argument that a front engine donor car can be successfully used to build an Aventador on without changing the front hood line?
I mean, if you're willing to change the height of the front hood, I guess you could use a Chevy Tahoe as a donor if you wanted, right?

[ronin]

I think this was built on a Prius.

That car is a little too grotesque for my taste. I could figure out how to make allot of those common and affordable cars look like a Ferrari 458. But; outside of lamborghini, the only thing I can see myself really getting excited about copying is the Saleen S5, which would use the same doner cars as a 458 and would probably be pretty straight forward since the car has never really gone in to production and I can basically take ALLOT of "artistic license" in building one. LOL.

[ronin]

 Here is something I mentioned earlier. It's a scale model of a 2000 Camaro I got as a birthday present. Or should I say, the gift card was and got spent on this. LOL.

 Anyway, I basically threw the the car together, covered the important areas with modeling clay and am now using it for experimentation. This allows me to try one thing without having to spend hours and money only to find out it was a bad idea. That also means I can try some seemingly absurd ideas to see if they actually work, something that has served me well in the past and has come in very handy twice in this experiment. For example, actually raising the hood in the right areas actually helps solve the front engine problem, something I never would have guessed but tried anyway. Although I already suspected it, I learned for sure, today in fact (unfortunately after the pictures were taken) that lowering and stretching the back of the car actually makes it look MORE like a Lamborghini Aventador overall.

 Using this solid model of a Camaro with the modeling clay body allows me to experiment with these wild ideas as well as obvious ones without spending tremendous amounts of time or money. Being able to try random things at an impulse without any sweat has proved critically valuable to this project and I am sure will continue to.

 That said, the sclae model experimentation is far from over. On top of that, the model; at the time of the pictures had been handled allot and the only real focused sculpting was focused on the area between the windshield and front wheel wells. Other experiments had been done on other parts of the car but they were unprotected from handling and all bent up.

 In any case, the most and perhaps only really valuable thing these pictures show is the solution to the "front engine look". There's more work to do but you can DEFINITELY see the improvement over what's been done so far with other cars.

BTW. My solution for the scissor doors is pretty simple. Reshape the lower back of the doors to a slant and buy and install a purpose built camaro door kit. I found one for $270 and has good reviews. These scissor doors open out a bit before lifting but how much they do is adjustable, so I'm going to adjust them so they just clear a blockage in the front of the door before lifting (about 6-7 inches out at the furthest point) using AR-15 recoil buffers and springs to launch the doors out automatically when opened. The extra advantage to this is that it's more or less a parts swap, skipping all the wiring and structural mods that usually accompany these changes. There are still mods but very minor ones in comparison.