Most likely I will test this muffler with turbo Supra engine (500-800hp). I know it will not sound exactly like aventador, and it is not even my purpose.. I just want to test what kind of sound it can produce, and its also a nice package for mid-engine car like I build.
Tantukka,
please let us know how this goes (post a video if you can). I have a 1996 Toyota Supra with twin 2835R turbos and I would love to hear what a 2JZ sounds like with that muffler. I've got straight pipes to circular magnaflow mufflers and its sounds very clean and healthy, a nice rumble that screams a bit as the throttle gets put down (the car also has 272 cams). I know that turbo engines want no backpressure at all, but since these engines make enough power already, I'd be willing to sacrifice a tiny bit of power to get a nice note out of the muffler. I've always wanted to put a sound tuned exhaust from an exotic car behind a 2JZ, never seen(or heard audio) it done before.
Loooong post ahead...I've been wanting to talk engine choice/exhaust stuff for replicas for some time now.....
Lots of good info in this thread, especially about the M120 Mercedes V12. That has been my favorite engine swap idea for a kit car/replica ever since I saw that equal length header video. That thing screams. Its hard to find info on using that engine for a swap, especially to a mid engine application since they are known to be kind of tough to separate from the auto trans they come with. It is doable, but requires an aftermarket ECU and some serious wiring and tuning. These guys are putting one in a Miami GT and are sorting out all the little issues, they'd be the best guys to ask about getting this motor into a mid engine, sequential manual powered car. They are using a Mendeola sequential, awesome but costs a fortune....
https://www.facebook.com/FZ12Supercar/info?tab=page_info =Miami GT build with Mercedes Benz M120 V12 and Mendeola sequential manual gearbox.These 2JZ's Tantukka brought up are known for their big power and performance, but it seems few talk about the exhaust note and even fewer seem to bother trying to 'sound tune' them for optimum acoustics because of the back-pressure issue. The best exhaust for them for performance is no muffler at all, and if there must be one, then it shouldn't be chambered or have any restrictions...... unfortunately that leaves us with pretty much zero options to get a different sound out of them. Engine sound is a big deal to me, and I think it was of the most overlooked aspects of the replica car community. So many times I see a nice build only to hear it start up and have it give itself away in seconds with a sound that is nowhere close to being European, let alone exotic. I've been wanting to discuss engine choices and exhaust sound for some time, so I figure this would be a good thread to mention some engines/exhaust set ups that I like or that could have some serious potential in a nice build.
I've always thought the 2JZ would make a very cool and unique engine choice for a replica car, not that it would ever sound exactly like what the replica looks like, but for those that are content with their replica's sound so long as its a healthy and powerful note, and doesn't resemble the sound of a muscle car or other domestic....I think it would be awesome. They are very strong and capable of big horsepower reliably. The downside is they are long, heavy, and expensive. As mentioned before, I think these engines are capable of making some very nice exhaust notes, its just that no one has done much experimentation because the engine is used in full-on performance applications almost exclusively. Some tinkering around with it may result in the discovery of a very exotic (in its own way, not replicating an already known exotic car) sound that you won't hear any other car producing. Here's what they sound like with an HKS high flowing muffler.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP6cVLG0iQY = VIDEO: Supra with 4" HKS exhaustHere's one with nice headers but straight pipes with what the owner says is a custom muffler.I suspect this is a muffler similar to what I am talking about; its definitely not a straight-through hi flo design like everyone else uses on these engines.....this is getting very close to what I am theorizing these engines can sound like....
Another engine I like as far as sounds go is the Toyota 3.0 V6 called the 1MZ-FE found in the Toyota Camry, Lexus ES300, RX300, from the 90's. It isn't a big power maker, but with some money put into it, 400-500hp is doable (compound turbo supercharger setup intercooled around $8k I think), there is a shop in Canada that has over 1,000hp in their Camry, truly insane but I doubt it would be cost effective. I have this motor swapped into my 1993 Toyota MR2 because I plan on doing a Ferrari 360 build on that chassis and I wanted the engine to have a European sound to it that was as close to exotic as possible. It's darn near impossible to replicate that flat plane crank 3.6 Ferrari V8, but with the proper exhaust, this thing can get darn close considering it is a 3.0 liter economy car V6 from Toyota. This one is installed in a DNA-kitted MR2 roadster Ferrari 36 replica......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECpekYGlnO8Compound charged 1MZ-FE
Mazda KL- A very inexpensive 2.5 liter engine from Ford/Mazda. Some guys have slapped turbos on them and boosted them up to ridiculous horsepower numbers. This engine has a very unique sound that I think can be made suitable for an exotic application.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYpucfAxxp0&feature=youtu.be =Mazda 2.5 liter KLZE V6, running 12 seconds in quarter mile in FWD Mazda 323!Now this is an engine that I have been racking my brain trying to figure out what I am missing.....because for the life of me, I cannot figure out why this thing is not insanely popular in the replica community and the engine swap/tuner community..... the Ferrari F136 engine found in the Maserati coupe and spyder from 2002 onward. Its a 90 degree V8, DOHC, 32 valve, 400hp/400tq. Variations of this engine is what is used in the Alfa Romeo 8C, Maserati Quatroporte, Ferrari California, Ferrari F430, and the 458 Italia. These engines can be purchased all day long on Ebay, I checked it just before posting this and found several, priced as complete, running motors between $3-5k! For 400hp/400tq? That sounds too good to be true...so much so that I am wondering if I am missing something. If anyone knows if there is some massive downside to this engine that I don't know about, please let me know. These things are a little more powerful than many LSx engines and is about the same price, a little cheaper than some of the newer 6.2's (and way cheaper than LSx engines on ebay). These engines bolt up to a very small looking trans that is available in paddle shift as a sequential manual, and they are very cheap too. I don't know anything about them, I want to find out what they are about because they too look like they could fullfill a lot of needs in the replica car community....that is probably one of the most difficult or expensive things to replicate in a build, the sequential manual trans, with people usually running a manually shifted true automatic instead. If this trans is usable, it would allow for inexpensive paddle shifting of a true sequential manual trans. These engines are mounted in the front of the spyder and coupe, but a torque tube extends all the way back to the rear end of the car and connects to this small trans/transaxle, making it a possible option for use as a mid engine transaxle as far as I know. Someone with some info on these, please inform us!
The engine sounds and performs amazing, is a Ferrari product, and most shocking of all to me, it is surprisingly affordable. Here's an exahust clip of a 4.2 in a Gransport, I beleive this one has custom made equal length headers which play a huge role in getting the great sound....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9Ey7rFmBrs = VIDEO: Maserati 4.2 Gransport equal length headers, great sound.Here's one of the same cars that the motor on ebay was pulled from, with just a muffler...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4J0_eKHVYQ = Ferrari F136 engine, stock in Maserati coupe 4.2 V8, stock with just catback exhaust added.So if you want to invest some money or time into fabricating some serious exhaust like equal length headers and hook that to an afermarket sound tuned or valvetronic muffler for a ferrari or lamborghini, you can get some very exotic sound for fairly cheap (relatively speaking)
Another good engine choice for a nice sound is Nissan's VQ35DE, a 3.5 Liter with hp from 240-304 and torque from 231-275ft lbs. depending on application, produced from 2001 onward. Its all aluminum, DOCH, variable valve timing, MPFI, it has made Ward's 10 best engines almost every year since it came out. A common vehicle it was found in is the Nissan 350Z as well as the Murano, Maxima, and Altima. Among car guys, this engine seems to have a love it or hate it exhaust note, some saying it burbles like a strange spaceship. I personally don't care for it with OEM headers and just a muffler, but like so many other engines, if you spend some money or have some fabrication skills and can make yourself a set of long tube, equal length headers for this engine, it sounds quite exotic in my opinion........
Last but not least we have the LSx (LS1, LS2, LS4[transverse from FWD]LS6, LS7, LS9).... I didn't include this engine because I think it is capable of a great exotic sound, I included it because it is just the best darn engine in every single category really, EXCEPT sound. I have owned quite a few LSx powered vehicles and currently have in a miata awaiting wiring, and one going into another MR2 chassis, this one is under construction completely and is just sitting in there without proper mounts even made yet. ..... I've got these two projects with this powerplant choice for one reason....they do everything well....good fuel economy, great power output, broad torque curve, reliable, inexpensive to maintain, lightweight for its power output (light in general really), tons of aftermarket support, relatively simple compared to European and Japanese V8 DOHC engines, etc, etc.
The one issue is I personally just can't stand the way they sound. They are tolerable to me with an exhaust that quiets them down and gives them kind of a constant deep rumble like Borla or Magnaflow. Anything else and they get too raspy for me and can make popping noise under deceleration and get more and more of a muscle car sound to them with an aggressive camshaft. This is not a problem if the engine is going into a muscle car or a domestic drag car or something....but I wouldn't want my Aventador replica rumbling up like a pumped up '69 Camaro. For me personally, I don't even like them much for that application (sound wise), the original SBC motors from GM have a much better sound to them for that muscle car rumble, but that's another story. Basically I just don't like the noise these things makes, and its terrible because they are so great.
I have looked into lots of remedies, and it seems others have too.... I saw some videos recently of authentic lamborghini mufflers being attached to their exhaust systems with very decent results....it covered the sound when the throttle is being applied, but was still that rough American chop at idle. I looked into those smooth idle street cams, but those are just to soften the idle of an already more aggressive than stock cam, it won't be smoother than OEM. The best option that I could come to on these engines is to have some 180 degree headers fabricated. I have only seen one video of these in a street car on an actual LSx motor. The rest are all on SBC, BBC, or Fords. That's really not close enough though, all of three of those engines will sound different than LSx's with 180's.....
There's no description of what muffler he's using, but I am going to assume it is something you still find standard on vettes like a flowmaster or a Borla. I would like to hear these headers attached to an OEM or aftermarket Lamborghini or Ferrari sound tuned exhaust like this.....
There's a couple of off-road buggies with 180's on them, they sound AMAZING at WOT, but still has that muscle rumble chop at idle.
Make sure you only click on the LS based ones, SBC sounds much different to me.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=180 degree headers ls = Multiple VIDEOS of 180 degree headers, not all videos are of LSx enginesThe only fix for that I think is Ligenfelter's flat plane crankshaft conversion, which I cannot believe exists. This is somewhat costly, and to be honest I don't know how it can offer any performance advantage over the traditional set up, but it does give you a flat plane crank like Ferrari has....although you will hear it still has a sound that is very much its own....and IMO, not resembling any exotic that I know of.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ligenfelter flat plane crank ls =
multiple Lingenfelter flat plane crankshaft LSx kit VIDEOS180 degree headers are supposed to mimic the effect of a flat plane crankshaft, but in this case I think the 180 headers do a better job of giving it the actual sound we are after. As far as I know, no one else does this for the sound, lol, they just care about the performance. I get that, but at the same time I don't get how optimum sound doesn't matter to so many gearheads. Anyway, I think the best hope for the LSx when used in replicas is a good set of 180 degree headers that are as long as possible (will sound better on LSx than short headers) but with a valvetronic, sound tuned style muffler like the Ferrari 458 one I posted.
An engine I almost forgot to add, but is one of the greatest sounding available.... the BMW s85 v10 is a DOHC V10 engine that was produced from 2005-2010. Used in the E60 M5 sedan, E61 M5 touring and E63/64 M6 coupé, it was inspired by BMW's previous Formula 1 involvement.
It is a high-revving engine designed to utilize power from a wide rev band. It has a redline of 8250 rpm, makes over 100 bhp , and has a very high compression ratio of 12.0:1.
Some specs and info:
It produces over 100 hp more than the previous E39 4.9liter V8, whilst weighing only 2.2 pounds more.
Has individual throttle bodies per cylinder.
5.0 Litre V10, 90 degree bank angle, 507 hp (378 kW) @ 7750rpm/520 N·m (384 lb·ft) torque @ 6100rpm
Cast aluminum block with bed plate design split at the crankshaft axis.
Cast aluminum heads with four valves per cylinder and CNC machined ports and combustion chambers. Valves are actuated through non-rotating inverted bucket cam followers.
Oil-cooled, forged aluminum pistons from Mahle Motorsport
Forged steel crankshaft with counterweights, shared crankpins producing an uneven firing interval of 90 or 54 degrees.
Double VANOS system which varies both intake and exhaust cam phasing
10 individual electronically controlled throttle butterflies
Quasi-dry sump lubricating system
The firing order for the S85 engine is 1-6-5-10-2-7-3-8-4-9.
Their cost varies greatly, with examples on ebay asking anywhere from $5,500-11,000; from remanufactured to high mileage used. Going rate for a lower mileage used complete motor is about $7,500. The engine can be costly to maintain and repair, which I think has turned quite a few people off of using them. The sound alone should be enough to tempt more than a few people though. Here is a BMW M6 with the s85, gutted cats, and eisenmann mufflers that look like this....
Here's another wildly exotic sounding engine, the 20b 3-rotor wankel motor from the Mazda/Eunos cosmo (Japanese sedan that only came in automatic, but the engine is popularly swapped into RX7's which came with a 13B 2-rotor engine). They can be incredibly expensive to purchase, and there is tremendous debate over whether or not they are durable/reliable with multiple failures reported by individuals, but much success in the motorsports, specifically endurance events. They are even used in some airplanes, so obviously someone has some serious faith in their ability to keep running. I've never built one of these engines myself, I've only driven a car equipped with one a few times and liked how it felt. They rev insanely high, and they sound awesome.....truly a great candidate as far as mimicking sound and high revs of exotics. The note is still its own, but is exotic and interesting enough to be used in a replica in my opinion.
Then we have the wankel motor that made me believe for just a moment that I had found the ultimate replica/kit car motor....the custom 4-rotor, developed from two RX7 13B wankel engines. I thought it was the one, that is until I researched what they cost to build. The only place that is really known for even making them can do one for about $70k by the time it gets back to you......which is obviously insane, but my first impression was that a motor constructed out of two fairly mass produced Japanese engines couldn't be too exotically priced. Rumor has it that someone in New Zealand is building 4 rotors out of two early predecessors to the 13B, making the costs significantly cheaper...I have not been able to verify yet. ...
but listen to that sound.....
https://youtu.be/oKmR0EVYoSo = VIDEO: most amazing sounding Japanese motor - custom 4 rotor wankel based on Mazda 13B's.